Positionals

[Aco505]

Personally, I just don't see any fun or value in positionals in the current game state. I can live if they stay as is, it doesn't overly detract from my fun. It just adds zero meaningful contribution to my engagement with the game in their current state and would rather their slow death just be finalized and replaced already. I agree that given SE's track record on combat design and iteration it is unlikely we'll see anything meaningful in regard to positionals for the foreseeable future.

Trying to get all positionals in fights where it's more of a challenge in high end content is quite fun and engaging on DRG.

[Turtledeluxe]

Finding the difference between consistency and homogeneity here feels very much like hair-splitting. Please elaborate as both heavily imply sameness between different items.

I can't speak for others, but I don't use or look at my parses. My issues are with the unneeded consistency in giving all melee jobs positionals regardless to whether it aligns with their class fantasy or not. I would actually be okay with positionals being an all or nothing thing if they aligned with class fantasy.



What would make something a functional argument, here? What makes something a non-functional one? Is there a reason that the disadvantage of positionals couldn't be accommodated for since they're already accommodated for with RPhys?

Also, I don't know what you mean by pure spam melee class.

I'm saying that this mechanic exists in melee because it just makes sense. No, not everything in the game is based on realism, but thereorerically someone attacking another person or thing at melee range does have to consider their positioning to some degree. So it just feels natural as an idea. That's probably why it's inherent to the class.

Suggesting that we make it like rphys btw, is homogeny at work. So far positionals are consistent because (with the very tiny exception of early NIN) they're just inherent to the role. It is intentional. Subtracting that away might differentiate it from some melee, but then it makes them functionally like other jobs in the game. Hence, homogeny.

What do I mean by spam? I mean that a melee that does not have to consider positionals is basically a spam attacker in comparison to one that does, rotations notwithstanding. It's a very similar concept between SMN and BLM. There's a reason their DPS is distinct (well, a few reasons, to be fair).

[Asako]

Positionals were fine in the past, but once you have bosses spinning every 2s with their super sized hitboxes it just becomes annoying. Either keep big boss hitboxes and get rid of positionals or vice versa. Both just don't work together.

Bring back Tank responsibility in positioning and stop having bosses reset themselves to center facing south.

[HikariKurosawa]

"Removing positionals would alienate a portion of the melee dps playerbase" lool. You'd get over it in a day or less unless you wanted to complain. Then it's a good thing, because you have something to complain about and that's what you want to do.

If they remove positionals they can redesign the ugly target circle that is designed around positional indication on top of removing true north. Those two reasons alone justify it entirely. It would also make encounter design much more streamlined and enable them to put the "difficulty" of positionals in more meaningful areas of gameplay.

Positionals hold the game back largely and this is very understated in the community.

Removing positionals doesn't make melee spam attackers either. Rotations would still be as complex and rigid as they are currently. You could simply focus more on execution of the rotation itself and everyone would be playing at a higher level. Melee is melee, you hit the enemy with a melee weapon at melee range. Ranged is ranged, you're either a caster or using a ranged weapon to attack the target from range. There is no homogenization.

[Turtledeluxe]

Positionals were fine in the past, but once you have bosses spinning every 2s with their super sized hitboxes it just becomes annoying. Either keep big boss hitboxes and get rid of positionals or vice versa. Both just don't work together.

Bring back Tank responsibility in positioning and stop having bosses reset themselves to center facing south.

The original post doesn't really address this but I think it has become central to the thread. Are positionals a problem or is it encounter design? This is a very important consideration* before suggesting deleting something from the game based on very very end game content.

[Sunhwapark]

If you want a melee without positionals, play as a tank.

[AmiableApkallu]

Are positionals a problem or is it encounter design?

Yes.

EW encounter design has the issue where melee can punch and stab and hack at the boss while standing out in Narnia.

Positionals as a mechanic has the issue that it's mechanic devoid of impact and feel. Pugilist/Monk is an easy example here. If you're running through Duty Finder content, positionals are irrelevant. Failing every single one has no meaningful impact on an encounter or your rotation (whatever passes for such in Duty Finder). Worse, even if you're trying to do the positionals correctly, they're so infrequent in the rotation that they don't convey the feel of a fleet-footed individual dancing around their opponent.

The game, as a whole, needs to commit to something, instead of the current middle ground of apathy.

[Sjol]

I'm saying that this mechanic exists in melee because it just makes sense. No, not everything in the game is based on realism, but thereorerically someone attacking another person or thing at melee range does have to consider their positioning to some degree. So it just feels natural as an idea. That's probably why it's inherent to the class.

I would agree if we were mostly fighting same-sized humans, but I'm the game as is, I'm several feet away and attacking something's leg or the air below something. Who even knows where the week point is on a pudding.

Suggesting that we make it like rphys btw, is homogeny at work. So far positionals are consistent because (with the very tiny exception of early NIN) they're just inherent to the role. It is intentional. Subtracting that away might differentiate it from some melee, but then it makes them functionally like other jobs in the game. Hence, homogeny.

I'm not suggesting making it like rphys, that would imply getting rid of the melee requirement. I'm saying that they've already find ways to account for positionals being required for some jobs and not others - a direct response to you starting that they would have to do so. I'm agreeing with you that they would, but also saying that they have in the past.

I also don't generally get hung up on role based distinctions beyond the Trinity. Within those, I care about individual class identity.

NIN, it's mudras
MNK, stands and solar/lunar
RPR, nothing
DRG, jumps and needs more of them
SAM, coins and could use something else

[VeolE]

"Rotations would still be as complex and rigid as they are currently

And that's where I stop reading.

[Turtledeluxe]

I would agree if we were mostly fighting same-sized humans, but I'm the game as is, I'm several feet away and attacking something's leg or the air below something. Who even knows where the week point is on a pudding.



I'm not suggesting making it like rphys, that would imply getting rid of the melee requirement. I'm saying that they've already find ways to account for positionals being required for some jobs and not others - a direct response to you starting that they would have to do so.

I was implying/assuming as I've said, that classes which are positional absent would simply get potency nerfed. That's the inevitable tradeoff. The devs are not going to habe a subdivision of melee who work harder to maintain dps but not reap any kind of reward for that. One person might find it annoying, other people ITT have explained it makes encounters more fun for them.

What I mean when I say they become homogenous with Rphys is not removing melee distance, but rather pointing out that aside from distance and every jobs rotation, the gameplay will feel more samey than it did before. Getting rid of positionals only makes melee more like rPhys, not less.

And you may say "well it's only 20% more samey feeling" yet, imo, that's too much in a game where nearly everyone feels that jobs feel more and more like one another every expansion.

And this is also why I say looking at positionals and how they can make them more fun/more unique > getting rid of them altogether or even in part. Encounter design revisions could help to bridge the gap.