Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[Oizen]

Abyssal Drain DA spam got nerfed for a reason.
I don't think bringing it back is a good solution to anything.

[Supersnow845]

At least dark arts abyssal drain requires the barest understanding of how your kit worked to actually make work and you needed to know when to use it and when to go for raw damage considering tanks in DPS stance were functionally just melee DPS by damage contribution

bloodwhetting’s other big problem besides its raw power is how damn easy it is to execute

If you can press bloodwhetting and literally a single AOE button in the next 4 GCD’s you get a benediction, there is literally zero skill involved

[Lyth]

I'm sure a return to DA+AD spam would stop all those DRK's from whining about WAR's self sustain in dungeons.

It's worth remembering that DA AD was designed as a dps loss to use at baseline. To justify its use, you needed to have an excess of MP where you would otherwise cap due to the gains from Blood Weapon/Blood Price/Quietus. Even after the 4.3 rework, this dps loss was still not refunded, simply because the dev team knew that a dps penalty was required to keep it in check. And even before the healing component was nerfed in 4.0, it was 120 potency per mob rather than 400. There was also no single target equivalent.

I think this highlights an important feature of tank self-sustain. It shouldn't be available on demand, and there need to be restrictions around its use. The equivalent would be if you weaved in an ability before every GCD with Bloodwhetting up to consume beast gauge in exchange for some extra healing. Even healers have to make trade-offs in order to maintain their healing output. Why shouldn't you?

[Absurdity]

I think this highlights an important feature of tank self-sustain. It shouldn't be available on demand, and there need to be restrictions around its use.

Pretty much this. And they seemingly forgot this important point within 2 years.

Back in Stormblood Warrior's healing was limited by both beast gauge for Inner Beast and tank stance for both it and Equilibrium, not only a heavy restriction but also a dps loss.
Even in Shadowbringers, where most of the restrictions were lifted, Nascent Flash was still limited by your ability to do enough damage during the buff, which consequently limited it by how many high potency skills were available to you at that moment.

But somehow the knowledge about needing to restrict tank sustain vanished from the dev's collective memory with Endwalker.

[Avoidy]

r/selfawarewolves

Yup, knew I'd get this response. In a game where you can play every job, I ... play every job! Fantastic rebuttal though. Have a reddit upvote.

As has been explained more times than I can possibly count you can’t scale damage hard enough to outscale bloodwhetting, it just doesn’t work

In a dungeon as much as any other content I want to heal, not watch the tank heal themselves while I do something vaguely related to that task

It’s the same as saying “don’t nerf bloodwhetting just add cleanable debuffs and lots of buffs and things to compensate” like no the tank isn’t the healer and the healer shouldn’t be stuffed to the side so the tank can be the healer

One or two white hole mechanics per boss isn’t going to change anything and white hole mechanics are the worst mechanic for the sylphies anyway

Sorry if I missed your original posts on this. We're at nearly 20 pages and I stopped after the first 3 because I got so tired of just seeing the same types of posts over and over again.
I can understand being put out by the current system. It's not great. I'd argue (and I did, in my OP) that there are ways to make healer feel like its presence matters in dungeons without gutting the fun out of WAR's kit. Going off of the logic in this thread, you'd basically need to nerf PLD and GNB as well, because if you know what you're doing on those jobs you don't really need a healer as those tanks either for dungeons. And the reason is like, yeah, they have self sustain, but also and more importantly, nothing really hurts in these trivial ass dungeons. If they just made the content itself more aggressive, more painful, and more interesting in general then we'd have a need for healers, we'd have actual fun dungeon content, and we wouldn't have to remove skills that lots of people actively enjoy to do it.

Frankly, it blows me away that we're talking about this from a dungeon context because dungeons are so trivial that every job in existence can invalidate them. Like, are you gonna pull up and ask for BLM's aoe to be nerfed because it kills the weak trash so fast that you don't have to heal? Or hey, maybe we can just take the stun out of holy so you can heal during what's usually a minimally damaging stun period? Literally the issue is that dungeons and story content in general are a joke. You can gut all the jobs until they play like healers but it won't change that this content was made for people who don't have thumbs, and as long as that's true it'll always get trivialized somehow no matter what.

[Supersnow845]

Yup, knew I'd get this response. In a game where you can play every job, I ... play every job! Fantastic rebuttal though. Have a reddit upvote.



Sorry if I missed your original posts on this. We're at nearly 20 pages and I stopped after the first 3 because I got so tired of just seeing the same types of posts over and over again.
I can understand being put out by the current system. It's not great. I'd argue (and I did, in my OP) that there are ways to make healer feel like its presence matters in dungeons without gutting the fun out of WAR's kit. Going off of the logic in this thread, you'd basically need to nerf PLD and GNB as well, because if you know what you're doing on those jobs you don't really need a healer as those tanks either for dungeons. And the reason is like, yeah, they have self sustain, but also and more importantly, nothing really hurts in these trivial ass dungeons. If they just made the content itself more aggressive, more painful, and more interesting in general then we'd have a need for healers, we'd have actual fun dungeon content, and we wouldn't have to remove skills that lots of people actively enjoy to do it.

Why does a tanks “fun” hinge on being a healer, if you want to heal then play a healer, not have the tank be a blue healer

[Avoidy]

Why does a tanks “fun” hinge on being a healer, if you want to heal then play a healer, not have the tank be a blue healer

It's just a satisfying part of the kit.
Are you actually making the argument that jobs should stick to a single role, in a game that encourages healers to dps 95% of the time?

[Supersnow845]

It's just a satisfying part of the kit.
Are you actually making the argument that jobs should stick to a single role, in a game that encourages healers to dps 95% of the time?

I’m making the argument that tanks don’t need to be healers especially in a game where healers can’t be tanks

All roles do damage because damage pushes an encounter forward, DPS don’t need to be healers or tanks, tanks don’t need to be healers and healers don’t need to be tanks

[Avoidy]

I’m making the argument that tanks don’t need to be healers especially in a game where healers can’t be tanks

All roles do damage because damage pushes an encounter forward, DPS don’t need to be healers or tanks, tanks don’t need to be healers and healers don’t need to be tanks

You say that, but the sad/funny thing is in dungeons, which has been the strange primary focus of this discussion, healers CAN be tanks. Because the damage is just that pathetically low. I've done stupid meme runs of 1h/3dps -just to see what would happen- and it actually worked, like even the tankbusters didn't come close to lethal (tested this with trusts, by letting thancred die and then just aquaveiling myself before a tankbuster hit me lol), and packs of trash die so fast that it legit isn't even a factor. That's why I keep harping on the fact that if you're going to have this discussion about gutting a job, the basis of it probably shouldn't be be how well it performs in dungeons because modern dungeons are so nerfed and so soft that basically any comp can go in and experience no issues. The whole focus of this thread just seems aimed in the wrong direction to me. Because even if you got your way and WAR was just a boring tank that did 123 until it filled its gauge, next you'd probably be in here talking about Paladin having too many heals, and then you'd probably want GNB's HoC removed too, and then there're DPS jobs that heal as well so we'd better remove that too, ... or the devs could just release dungeons that actually called for the beefy healing kits that healers have, and we wouldn't have to ruin anything for anyone. I prefer the latter approach, as someone who plays everything and does actually heal quite a bit.

Gonna hop out, was genuinely nice talking to you. Sorry if it felt repetitive on your end though.

[Supersnow845]

Well I was going to ask the above but he is leaving so I’ll ask it as a general question

Tank mains, if DT came out and square decided to make it so that holy’s stun never fell off so that as long as the WHM pressed it once every 10 seconds or so the enemies could never actually do damage to you would you genuinely enjoy that. I mean it makes the run easier And if you ever say “but I like being able to press my defensives” other people respond with “but holy is fun, don’t ruin healers change tanks”

That’s basically what bloodwhetting is/not excog and holy Shelton as well

Pressing a fun button shouldn’t invalidate another role