Dark Knight Megathread

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Alright, if you wanna go into technicalities, I'll happily oblige because apparently something isn't clear here.

You told me of examples of DSR but PLD can do exactly just that. Use Rampart and with 100 gauge use Holly Sheltron for himself and Intervention for an ally. Intervention is literally a 10% + 10% ( Rampart's trait ) + 10% for 4 seconds + a heal over time. So a 20% magic mitigation with an additional 10% all round mitigation would never fly?

Alright, let's actually compare the mitigations a bit:

• Intervention - 10% from Knight's Resolve, 10% from Intervention, 20% if either Rampart or Sentinel are active (we assume it is). Takes about 22s to charge one use (2.2s AA recast x 10)
  1 * 0.8 (Intervention) * 0.9 (Knight's Resolve) = 0.72 x of damage remaining, meaning 28% mitigation.
  
  Furthermore, it is only 28% mitigation in the first 4 seconds AND Rampart/Sentinel active, 19% if it is not active, 20% if active and after Knight's resolve expires, 10% if not active and Knight's resolve expires. To add to it, you can only use 1x Intervention within 10 seconds, very much unlike Oblation and your suggested Dark Mind / Oblation merge.
• Dark Mind-Oblation-merge - 20% magic mitigation, 10% generic mitigation (net 29% vs Magic) for 10 seconds and no mitigation decay and no requirement of having your own Rampart or Shadow Wall online for full power, on a 45s recharge, can toss out two at the same time to non-tank targets on top of still being able to toss out TBN to a 3rd. And have TBN pretty much up a few seconds later for personal use or another ally.

I am sorry Guts, but those two are leagues apart. One can do it high but with lots of "but" and "if", the other's only requirement is having it on a 45s recharge timer, as per your suggestion, and can do it to more than one player at a time. The only situational cost here is the inflexibility of being able to split the magic mitigation and generic mitigation for personal usage (i.e. what we have now).

Adding a heal over time won't make Oblation interesting it will just be copy paste of the other tank's heal over time effects.

Not once did I say heal over time, as it would very obviously lean onto Aurora's effect if I said that. I said (multiple times) a direct heal upon expiration of Oblation, based on this skill from Astrologian:

At the same time DRK has already a lot of buttons and if you wish for more, they got to reduce them. So either merge stuff together or simply get the HW / SB treatment - "Removed".
I suggested 2 options:
1. Merge Dark Mind with Oblation and leave TBN as it is
2. Merge TBN with Oblation and rework Dark Mind. If going down this route, Dark Arts has to be changed as well as TBN will be harder to break completely.

The job needs more recovery tools ( HP recovery ), similar to what it had in Stormblood I guess, since back then you had TBN and apparently there wasn't this refusal for DRK to have HP recovery tools ( ex: Abyssal Drain spam, Sole Survivor ).

Alright, let's talk button bloat then. Let's start with the obvious examples that aren't mentioned yet.

• Edge of Shadow + Flood of Shadow - merge the skill. Why do we have two identical buttons for different amounts of enemies here?
• Bloodspiller + Quietus - minus the difference in MP generation under Delirium (which is awful in itself right now), same as above.
• Carve & Spit + Abyssal Drain (current) - they literally share a cooldown, why not make Carve a forward cleave with a 600 potency heal for the first target and 200 heal potency (and 60% fall-off damage) for every further? Why have two different ones?
• Shadowbringer - functionally the most uninteresting option of a damage skill ever given to us, with no meaningful interaction possible. Could literally just be an EoS/FoS upgrade and I wouldn't be wiser and would free up opener / burst bloat.
• Lack of PvP-style combo consolidation as a toggle / option - would free up three more buttons if desired.

Yet here you are, trying to justify why Oblation has to go instead of be built upon, in a sorry attempt to appease to Square Enix's funky button consolidation.

I agree that DRK could use some manner of HP recovery beyond providing just HP shielding with TBN (which is counted as healing for statistics, btw), however I believe there are healthier options than axing an interesting, if underdeveloped skill that has a niche in flexibility so far no other tank can fill. And as someone who religiously played DRK in Stormblood, let me tell you, DA-Abyssal Drain lifesteal purely being gated by resources made healers infinitely more obsolete than Bloodwhetting ever did. Sole Survivor was nice and honestly underdeveloped (could have done more with it) but DRK's AOE lifesteal was beyond stupid and puts current day WAR to shame.

As for TBN's meme with having to be broken, said for a while now that the duration should have been 8s like the other tools if not 10s like the PvP version for a while now. The latter would create some interesting gameplay options with mitigation timing by chaining TBNs cooldown.

As for the last bit:

DRK can be great going into Dawntrail if only it'd get more attention unlike it received in Endwalker to be a bit more rounded in its kit than just oGCD spam during the 2 mins. I bet it would have been the least played tank if its 2 min burst wouldn't align so well with raid buffs and the burst meta.
- More frequent attacks and more resource interaction between Darkside and Bloodgauge
- Changes to Bloodgauge, Delirium and Darkside to not be a copy paste Beastgauge, Inner Release and Surging Tempest. Yes its nice to be able to play all jobs, but what about the people that really like DRK? They want to play DRK, not WAR.
- More cohesive mitigation ( HP recovery too ) and job identity instead of oGCD spam during 2 mins, and even the oGCD spam is fine really, if it was more interactive and meaningful.

Pretty much agree on 100% of this on that bit.

As for ideas to handle cohesive mitigation and job identity - I'd like to point at one thing from WAR, that is a gnarly thorn to me (literally) and that other tanks do not capitalize on, namely Vengeance being more than just a 30% mitigation tool but having additional interaction.

Given the lengthy cooldown, it could be interesting to give Shadow Wall an effect that could maybe consolidate damage taken in the 15 seconds that it is up and upon expiration (see a theme I'm doing here?) heal you for a portion of that damage taken. Further mitigation would reduce how much you'd heal by virtue of taking less damage, but HP shields would keep it unchanged (TBN) because it's technically a type of HP.

Dark Mind I'd simply give the Addle treatment so DRK's can use it at a lesser power in physical-only fights. Oblation I mentioned a bunch of times already. TBN maybe making next EoS/FoS have heal potency attached if broken (Dark Arts effect), leaning into the vengeance hit trope. Hell, make Salted Earth have a mitigative effect similar to PvP for the DRK only.

[Lyth]

...

Oblation has a fundamental design problem, which in turn is linked to TBN. If you look at most of the level 82 tank action upgrades (Sheltron to HS, RI to BS, and HoS to HoC), they are designed to add another 10-15% DR on top of the baseline 25 second recast action. The issue is that TBN was balanced against these baseline actions trading off a 10 second recast difference against the requirement to break the shield to stay damage neutral. Adding more damage reduction or more %HP shielding as a flat upgrade makes this shield break less likely to happen, which is why they were forced to split it into two parts.

Oblation really isn't designed to be used in isolation. 10% DR is more appropriate for raid mitigation, and even DPS have personal mitigations on 10% DR with much shorter recasts. It's genuinely absurd when you consider that a level 82 tank action is providing similar %DR on a longer recast than a Lv. 6 SAM action or a Lv. 30 RPR action. As far as charges are concerned, HS/Intervention are functionally on a 2 charge system while generating faster charges, so this is a thoroughly underwhelming action on all fronts. It's just a missing supplement to TBN that was fractured off into a separate action to balance against the integrated upgrades on other tanks.

The problem is that while TBN holds back the design here, any change to this setup is going to be a definite downgrade on recast alone. I also think a revision to TBN and further homogenization on recast is probably inevitable, simply because people have been pushing for it. I think a compromise is to offer both options. Keep the short recast and baseline TBN if you want, or give it up temporarily for a bigger defensive and removal of the MP cost. That's what I've proposed here.

A similar situation holds for Dark Mind. Dark Mind is the strongest defensive in its category on recast alone. Any revision to it is going to be a nerf. Consider that ToB is effectively 15% HP flat DR, Bulwark is 20% DR, and Camo is 10% DR + 50% parry (effectively 10% physical DR when averaged over multiple hits), all on 90 second recast. I find it highly unlikely that any other tank job main is going to allow you to swap over Dark Mind on demand to physical mitigation while keeping the 60 second recast. Yet a fundamental issue with Dark Mind is versatility. So you should think about ways in which you could have a degree of physical parity without losing the recast advantage on the base ability.

Dark Missionary has been a longstanding balance problem. The lack of personal healing on DRK has been a longstanding balance problem. Do you want to give up two of your 90-100 actions just to fix balance problems that should have been addressed this expansion? Or would you rather repurpose a fluff 10% DR and upgrade all these issues at once? I think you need to be practical about this. It would have been really easy for me to suggest something obviously imbalanced and guarantee that it gets ignored by the balance team, rather than suggesting a plausible upgrade that addresses multiple issues at once.

[Oizen]

You could fix a lot of TBN's issues just by making it pop if you take any damage, and not requiring the shield to break completely.

There is so much content in this game where TBN is nonfunctional to a bis tank, and its hilarious to me that a DRK in normal content feels more sturdy with a 1 or 2 vuln stacks than it does without it due to TBN becoming usable.

[Supersnow845]

You could fix a lot of TBN's issues just by making it pop if you take any damage, and not requiring the shield to break completely.

There is so much content in this game where TBN is nonfunctional to a bis tank, and its hilarious to me that a DRK in normal content feels more sturdy with a 1 or 2 vuln stacks than it does without it due to TBN becoming usable.

That’s not a problem of TBN that’s a problem of how hilariously little damage this game does

If the game can’t crack a 25% HP shield in 7 seconds the tanks are both too tanky inheritantly and the game isn’t doing enough damage

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

That’s not a problem of TBN that’s a problem of how hilariously little damage this game does

If the game can’t crack a 25% HP shield in 7 seconds the tanks are both too tanky inheritantly and the game isn’t doing enough damage

It's sad how the main content that can pop TBN with regularity is basically Ultimate, later floor savages and essentially criterion.

Half of a remedy could be moving the duration to 10s analog to PvP TBN, however there will still be plenty of situations whete bosses simply stop attacking for extended periods of time and keep tank damage far too regulated to busters and auto attack phases.

We could really use more mechs like Delta Attack from O4S p2 or the spread + tank stack from Emerald Weapon EX.

[ItsUrBoi]

Alright, if you wanna go into technicalities, I'll happily oblige because apparently something isn't clear here.

I am not against merging Edge and Flood of Shadow, Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain, Bloodspiller and Quietus, those are great ideas - however they need to be replaced by something else that adds to the job.
We also need to give up on the boring useless traits that do nothing but "Increase Living Shadow potency to x", if its needed to add an action to be executable by Living Shadow make the increase of potency and the additional action within 1 trait and add something else that is more useful.
Delete Enhanced Unmend and replace it with just another stack of Plunge or something else, that actually makes the job better.

With Shadowbringer's rework of DRK the job just feels both incomplete and rushed warrior copy paste, unlike MNK / GNB / RPR / SGE / PLD reworks or new kits. The way you get 2 gauges is fine but only as long as there's another essential job mechanic, NIN and MNK also have 2 gauges ( a spender gauge and a speed / dmg gauge ) but they have mudras and perfect balance and forms to add more.

I thought a lot about this and here's an idea, that is really simple and would greatly help the job:
- Remove Flood of Shadow. Edge of Shadow has a new animation where it does damage around you, with fall off after the first enemy hit.
- Dark Arts now grants a free Edge of Shadow or Abyssal Drain upon complete absorption of the shield or when the shield expires. Abyssal Drain costs 3000 MP and has no cooldown. ( fixed: Dungeon or AoE sustain, TBN breaking issue )
- Dark Mind now grants 10% damage reduction with an additional 15% magical for 10 seconds. ( fixed: magic specific, useless against anything else )
- TBN upgrades into Oblation at lvl 82. Can keep 2 charges ( fixed: defensive button consolidation )

More ambitious changes:
- Quietus removed
- Bloodspiller changed to cost 25 blood, with a better animation as it should have fall off after first target ( fixed: Not so similar to Fell Cleave anymore )
- Delirium is now a GCD that is only executable after Bloodspiller. Delirium has fall off after first target as well, no cost. ( fixed: Not an Inner Release copy anymore )
- Change the bloodgauge generating abilities to generate less blood
- Replace Enhanced Unmend with a trait that makes the next Edge of Shadow or Abyssal Drain heal over time as well or an small burst heal when HP < 50% on Oblation
- Add a new utility ability similar to old Blood Price or Sole Survivor
- Living Shadow copies your GCD attacks, after executing 3 combos of Bloodspiller -> Delirium , you and Fray can do a powerful finisher together

[Zairava]

I used to be for the whole merging of Dark Mind with oblation or whatever, or putting phys and lowering the magic resistance, but I don't really see that as something that needs fixing. DRK is already plenty tanky without having every defensive in the kit be for every type of damage. Let it keep its niche.

As for TBN, I also used to be for just guaranteeing that you get the proc after the duration ends, but after thinking about it more, I don't want that either. In my eyes, the fact that there's a risk of it not popping is what makes it satisfying at all, and would lose a lot of it if you were to take that risk away, something none of the other tanks have. I find it worth keeping and would prefer just increasing TBN's duration to 8 or 10 seconds.

That said, I am for merging:

• Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain (or separating them and giving Abyssal Drain an mp cost again)
• Edge/flood
• Bloodspiller/Quietus

as for everything else

• Even in its current iteration of Blood Weapon, I would like Delirium to extend that again, add perhaps 3 charges and some seconds to the timer or so? (also add the haste back, please)
• Maybe Blood Price could return and we can place it on other people? I doubt they would give it to us word for word as back then because it would mean we lose damage when not MT (the horror is unimaginable). Basically this would mean putting it on someone else would give MP and Blood Gauge in return. As per the bullet above, I wouldn't mind Delirium effecting that as well.
• Not the biggest fan of shadowbringer in general, it could be removed outright and I would be no worse for wear. Attach an MP cost or something, Darkside being a requirement is laughable when we can maintain Darkside while in a coma.
• The ideas for Living Shadow are on a list a mile long, but I've been on record saying that I'd like some Bunshin-Enshroud hybrid where we let our Darkside take over over what we have now. Maybe upon activating it we have a special combo we can use (whether it replaces our 1-2-3 combo or otherwise) and it can have some big finisher or something. My stance hasn't changed there.
• As stated numerous times, we could tack on sustain to DA procs or Oblation, either works. What if we could store a healing ability charge when TBN breaks outside of DA procs, and use it when needed?

The mostly pointless traits explain themselves. We could really do without those for yet another expansion, or replace the ones we got in Endwalker with more interesting ones as well.

[Oizen]

That’s not a problem of TBN that’s a problem of how hilariously little damage this game does

If the game can’t crack a 25% HP shield in 7 seconds the tanks are both too tanky inheritantly and the game isn’t doing enough damage

I really can't see them ever making the game harder though, and I feel like you know that as well.

[Supersnow845]

I really can't see them ever making the game harder though, and I feel like you know that as well.

Unfortunately it’s a consideration they will have to tackle eventually because even ignoring the tanks usurping the healer role the tanks are becoming internally unbalanced because they are way too overpowered relative to the other 2 roles

They are already functionally immortal, they take less damage than a caster when they have 7 vuln stacks, survive raidwides that oneshot the casters on 20% HP, and since TB’s are just kitchen sink or die the only way to split them in modern day is either on “how much can I can cuck the healer compared to you” or just constantly upping their damage, notice that tanks are unequivocally stronger than healers this expansion despite them having rough parity prior to this

People complain to the moon and back tanks are boring and homogenised but then never actually suggest anything that will actually differentiate them, instead just constantly asking for more more more to usurp each other, it’s strange the forums of the DPS never suggest this sort of thing, for example MCH is still pretty meh in damage but adding a second raidwide mitigation was a massive boom to them and they are happy with that, same as healer, tanks seem alone in always demanding that all 4 jobs just sit in an endless buff race that leaves the other 2 roles in the dust. Just look at every suggestion for DRK regarding their self sustain, it basically amounts to “give them dark bloodwhetting”

Either the game needs to be made harder or the tanks need to be nerfed, there is literally no other solution to this problem, because if TBN cracked by default that suddenly makes DRK much sturdier in all content because pressing TBN on CD becomes optimal, then suddenly PLD or GNB will complain about block not affecting x or parry not affecting y and then they get buffed and then WAR complains again and the circle goes round and round, eventually you have to accept nerfs to retain parity or otherwise make the game harder so you can’t cuck the other 2 roles and solo everything

[Oizen]

I think its more of the tank mitigations are balanced entirely around the highest end content out there. So they come off as overtuned in anything below that.
It kinda puts tank in this weird spot where its only as engaging/challenging as the content you're in is.

Theres also the issue that this game's combat system is so incredibly narrow in scope that there really isn't that much variety you can do in order to make a job good at something, like for lowering incoming damage you have shielding, regen and actual mit. We've already cornered ourselves by deciding that a job like WAR needs all 3 styles at once. There's really no where else to go with it, and I don't think its wrong for people to want Dark Knight to have its own equivalent for self sustain when formerly Shield Mitigation used to be Dark Knight exclusive until that was basically stolen off of it with Endwalker.


And I really can't see the Dev's ever nerfing one of their favorite jobs, because overall I'd describe FFXIV's balancing philosophy as "devs picked a favorite and that's gonna be the best option at everything", which expands to DPS and Healers as well.