Dark Knight Megathread

[Colt47]

That’s a problem with the fact that as we’ve discussed many times WAR just gets everything DRK has with no downsides, TBN is the best designed short CD, square just can’t give any downsides to WAR if you paid them

Actually, DRK got everything WAR got with downsides. They copy pasta'ed warrior onto DRK for who knows what reason and then made it an incoherent mess. The only reason it is playable is because if someone makes a job and its skills are literally a three hit combo and a giant blob of OGCDs, it can kind of survive on its own with a few tweaks to the potencies. But it's not the same as having an actual good rotation or method to the madness.

[Supersnow845]

Actually, DRK got everything WAR got with downsides. They copy pasta'ed warrior onto DRK for who knows what reason and then made it an incoherent mess. The only reason it is playable is because if someone makes a job and its skills are literally a three hit combo and a giant blob of OGCDs, it can kind of survive on its own with a few tweaks to the potencies. But it's not the same as having an actual good rotation or method to the madness.

Not really, bloodspiller spam is older than WAR’s current fell cleave spam (4.0 vs 4.2), DRK also used to be the gap closer tank before they decided to give WAR 4 gap closers, same as DRK being the OG life suck tank because that was also given to WAR, while being given to every tank DRK losing its niche in how powerful TBN is another example

Most of the features the two share DRK got first then they just gave a better version to WAR later

[Mayhemmer]

The only reason it is playable is because if someone makes a job and its skills are literally a three hit combo and a giant blob of OGCDs, it can kind of survive on its own with a few tweaks to the potencies. But it's not the same as having an actual good rotation or method to the madness.

It works and plays perfectly fine for me, but let's not act like DRK stands out in terms of (un-)creative job design. DRK, WAR, and PLD all suffer from that, as if somebody in charge at CBU3 is just outright horrified at the idea of doing anything whatsoever to give tanks interesting and interconnected mechanics in their kits. Nearly every job is suffering from it at this point, but those three tanks most of all. The reason I will always prefer DRK is because it, at least, doesn't put me to sleep in the middle of a duty.

[Oizen]

It works and plays perfectly fine for me, but let's not act like DRK stands out in terms of (un-)creative job design. DRK, WAR, and PLD all suffer from that, as if somebody in charge at CBU3 is just outright horrified at the idea of doing anything whatsoever to give tanks interesting and interconnected mechanics in their kits. Nearly every job is suffering from it at this point, but those three tanks most of all. The reason I will always prefer DRK is because it, at least, doesn't put me to sleep in the middle of a duty.

All of the jobs are Fell Cleave spam.
Even something like GNB which looks original on paper is just Fell Cleave spam with more steps.

Gnashing fang's combo is your 3 free Fell Cleaves
Burst Strike is just Fell Cleave to prevent overcapping
Bloodfest could also be seen as Inner Release.

Jobs for punish you for using your skills wrong, TBN and dissipation are literally the last examples of this phenomenon existing

They don’t have to completely destroy your rotation if you do them wrong but you shouldn’t be able to just throw out skills whenever you want and not get punished if you do them wrong, HOC should only proc the excog if you take a certain amount of damage under clarity of corrundum, bloodwhetting and holy Shelton are even worse

Then something has to change here, because as it stands TBN is significantly weaker than the other 3, with the only benefit being its 15s CD.
Which isn't bad, but thats the same benfit Dark Mind and Oblation have as well, weaker power with lower CD. Which also wouldn't be so bad if the job had some reasonable Sustain behind it, but it also doesn't leaving an awkward mess where Dark Knights cooldowns are just worse for no tangible upside.

[GoatOfWar]

All of the jobs are Fell Cleave spam.
Even something like GNB which looks original on paper is just Fell Cleave spam with more steps.

Gnashing fang's combo is your 3 free Fell Cleaves
Burst Strike is just Fell Cleave to prevent overcapping
Bloodfest could also be seen as Inner Release.



Then something has to change here, because as it stands TBN is significantly weaker than the other 3, with the only benefit being its 15s CD.
Which isn't bad, but thats the same benfit Dark Mind and Oblation have as well, weaker power with lower CD. Which also wouldn't be so bad if the job had some reasonable Sustain behind it, but it also doesn't leaving an awkward mess where Dark Knights cooldowns are just worse for no tangible upside.

We need to have an uncomfortable conversation as a community about powercreep first, and i don't think people (you know who) are ready for that.
Because if you buff TBN then a certain portion of the playerbase will lose their mind again in this never ending armsrace.
The alternative option is to just make Drk worse than every other tank, which seems to be the solution SE has settled for.
Because we don't have streamers representing our job spearheading internet rants, this is easier for them to deal with.

[Colt47]

It absolutely doesn't matter if the job is a copy of another job anyway. What matters is if it is a worse copy than the others and unfortunately it is.

[GoatOfWar]

It absolutely doesn't matter if the job is a copy of another job anyway. What matters is if it is a worse copy than the others and unfortunately it is.

Well, any time Drk did something different the Warrior playerbase was up in arms about it until it got homogenised.. So that just brings us back to the same uncomfortable conversation.

[Absurdity]

Well, any time Drk did something different the Warrior playerbase was up in arms about it until it got homogenised.. So that just brings us back to the same uncomfortable conversation.

I know you're on a crusade against warrior but let's not make up some weird myth that warrior players somehow caused Dark Knight's 5.0 rework that just turned it into Warrior-but-worse.

[Colt47]

I mean I'm running the job right now and sorting my feelings on it again just to double check my own thoughts.

I actually got a bunch of questions that only the devs could probably answer involving tanks in general.

1) In the design of the dungeons, is the intent that all tanks are supposed to be able to handle a single pack of enemies with a typical composition, or is the intent that the tanks should be able to handle all enemies within a walled section with a typical party comp?
2) When the tanks are built, what skills are dedicated for mid-high end content vs normal content? In the current design it feels like a lot of the skills are not necessary until we hit end-game even though we have them unlocked and the opposite seems to happen with lower level content.

Outside of that, DRK has a flow to it once it gets going, but I definitely feel like salt and darkness is unnecessary bloat even though it is on the same button, and blood weapon could easily be merged into Delirium as a single skill. The reason they didn't merge them appears to be due to the stretch between 68-79 since at that level we don't have living shadow yet and lack the extra skills we get such as oblation. Actually, when I look at it Oblation feels like it was supposed to be a buff to TBN, but they decided to split it into a separate skill since it doesn't synergize with how TBN wants to work. DRK is the one tank that doesn't want to have all their eggs in one basket because the intent is to have TBN break to give a bonus hit. It's like you are begging your healers to be worse at their jobs of shielding you and mitting because that is what TBN wants. :P

[GoatOfWar]

I mean I'm running the job right now and sorting my feelings on it again just to double check my own thoughts.

I actually got a bunch of questions that only the devs could probably answer involving tanks in general.

1) In the design of the dungeons, is the intent that all tanks are supposed to be able to handle a single pack of enemies with a typical composition, or is the intent that the tanks should be able to handle all enemies within a walled section with a typical party comp?
2) When the tanks are built, what skills are dedicated for mid-high end content vs normal content? In the current design it feels like a lot of the skills are not necessary until we hit end-game even though we have them unlocked and the opposite seems to happen with lower level content.

Outside of that, DRK has a flow to it once it gets going, but I definitely feel like salt and darkness is unnecessary bloat even though it is on the same button, and blood weapon could easily be merged into Delirium as a single skill. The reason they didn't merge them appears to be due to the stretch between 68-79 since at that level we don't have living shadow yet and lack the extra skills we get such as oblation. Actually, when I look at it Oblation feels like it was supposed to be a buff to TBN, but they decided to split it into a separate skill since it doesn't synergize with how TBN wants to work. DRK is the one tank that doesn't want to have all their eggs in one basket because the intent is to have TBN break to give a bonus hit. It's like you are begging your healers to be worse at their jobs of shielding you and mitting because that is what TBN wants. :P

You don't get a bonus hit, you get a refund of the mana spent on TBN that would have been spent on damage if it was any other tank.