Dark Knight Megathread

[Lyth]

DRK takes a similar approach to its action budget as NIN, which is why they tend to feel similar in terms of burst/downtime. There are a lot of 60s recast GCDs. The fact that Salted Earth had to be offset to 90 seconds highlights that the dev team are aware of how packed the burst window is. What's missing is GCD variety during downtime, which is partially the consequence of an underutilized blood gauge.

I really dislike how the baseline combo generates resources, and I've been pointing this out since Stormblood. I think every combo step should generate blood, which is how resource generation works on more modern jobs. All of DRK's blood actions cost 50 blood. Blood is acquired in 20 blood increments on each Souleater. Who designed this? Change it to 10 blood per combo step, regardless of which GCD you're on, and regardless of whether it's single target or AoE.

Rather than going back to a flat haste effect, I'd rather see individual GCDs that were sped up. For example, you could have blood-based attacks like Bloodspiller and Quietus on a 1.5s GCD instead.

In short, I'd probably do something along the lines of this:
Hard Slash/Syphon Strike/Soul Eater/Unleash/Stalwart Soul: Gain 10 blood.

Bloodspiller: Costs 50 blood. 1.5s recast. Gain 1500 MP. Restores HP.
Torcleaver: Combos off of Bloodspiller. 1.5s recast. Gain 1500 MP. Restores HP.
Quietus: Costs 50 blood. 1.5s recast. Gain 3000 MP. Restores HP.

I know this impacts MP generation prior to Lv. 62, but perhaps the solution is to just make the blood system available earlier.

[DRKoftheAzure]

DRK takes a similar approach to its action budget as NIN, which is why they tend to feel similar in terms of burst/downtime. There are a lot of 60s recast GCDs. The fact that Salted Earth had to be offset to 90 seconds highlights that the dev team are aware of how packed the burst window is. What's missing is GCD variety during downtime, which is partially the consequence of an underutilized blood gauge.

I really dislike how the baseline combo generates resources, and I've been pointing this out since Stormblood. I think every combo step should generate blood, which is how resource generation works on more modern jobs. All of DRK's blood actions cost 50 blood. Blood is acquired in 20 blood increments on each Souleater. Who designed this? Change it to 10 blood per combo step, regardless of which GCD you're on, and regardless of whether it's single target or AoE.

More like an amalgamation of pre-existing jobs put together and call it a rework from Shadowbringers, but yeah the GCD variety is VERY lacking... and 10 Job Specific Gauge per combo step(auto-attacks in case of Paladin) SHOULD be standard for ALL JOBS. Also Red Mage would probably feel SO MUCH better to play if it generated White and Black Mana consistantly in increments of 10.

Rather than going back to a flat haste effect, I'd rather see individual GCDs that were sped up. For example, you could have blood-based attacks like Bloodspiller and Quietus on a 1.5s GCD instead.

Yeah I don't see that happening unless it's a passive trait for ALL jobs... Though I am also okay with Darkside being a passive trait that you don't need to turn on and maintain, same with Living Shadow being a trait that just boosts potency by up to 300... Keep the pets on Arcanist jobs, Beast Master, and Puppet Master please and thank you.

I know this impacts MP generation prior to Lv. 62, but perhaps the solution is to just make the blood system available earlier.

That's what I proposed for Edge of Darkness/Shadow but apparently no one likes my idea... Just ask Shurrikhan, and they REALLY don't like my ideas...

[Shurrikhan]

Again, that's says more about you wasting a single defensive cooldown that has the potential for 6 GCDs worth of free big damage for, otherwise, you only get 2 GCDs worth of free big damage, which is where the Quietus and Abyssal Drain reworks come in, for player like you... Though I do understand the concerns of it being overpowered, but the big damage makes up for the lack of oGCDs, something you CLEARLY did not understand...

6 GCDs of "free big damage" every 25s, for a total of 14.4 free GCDs of damage per minute, equating to over 10% of your total DPS in that single "defensive" ability?

"Big damage" does not make up for degraded playflow. "Big damage" is an accident that gets patched out as soon as possible unless it's really just taken from elsewhere in the kit, which then means "your offensive kit is jank af, overly concentrating itself around a single button (a "defensive" of all things, in this case), for no net increase in capacity".

Your entire attempt here is contradictory as hell.

No, removing DRK's oGCDs just to then make TBN a larger damage loss than before when not popped (and yes, it is a damage loss; every advantage you fail to get is still a loss, regardless of what it says on the tin, because your balanced will be balanced around reasonable play, not utter failure) does not "make up" for anything.

Okay, that was MOSTLY because of Parry builds but that was VERY inconsistent, and less Dark Arts that cause the high APM, and maybe Dark Dance and Dark Passenger Evasion bonuses.

Literally no. One does not have to factor in HW Reprisal or Low Blow for DRK to have had, from its inception, a higher APM than PLD or especially Warrior.

Because the average APM

Rotational APM measurements do not factor in defensives, self-heals, or non-rDPS utility actions.

That's what I proposed for Edge of Darkness/Shadow but apparently no one likes my idea... Just ask Shurrikhan, and they REALLY don't like my ideas...

I don't like most of DRK's oGCD attacks being removed in favor of convoluted Blood spending that ultimately offers nothing extra save to force further bundling of actions via a knockoff RDM combo and increased damage loss from failed TBNs.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether I'd like to see the Blood gauge added before level 62. Which, also, your post made zero mention of anyways, and still makes no mention of after your edit:

I've already made a conscious decision to not level up Dark Knight in the next expac if doesn't get a rework that makes it feel less bad to play with raid buffs... because the oGCD spam makes it VERY hard to fit all of those oGCDs into 20 second burst window while also clipping the GCD...

You can convert Salt and Darkness into GCD spell that combos after Stalwart Soul and move it to level that Salted Earth is and it would make AoE feel slightly better, though could make Stalwart Soul and Salt and Darkness restore MP, Blood gauge, and restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit(see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details).

Heck you could make Blood Weapon be a mini Darkside that grants 15-25% haste which then becomes Darkside when you do the quest to unlock it, and then have Darkside become Living Shadow with the dark flames aura that also boosts potency by 100-300, and we can keep the ways to maintain Darkside and have those apply to Blood Weapon and Living Shadow.
Edit: Basically I just want to turn and maintain Darkside in and out of of combat with the haste effect of Heavensward/Stormblood Blood Weapon.
Edit 2: Have Darkside upgrade into Delirium to where it generates a Dark Arts stack every 15 seconds indicated by the Darkside timer(or gauge as the devs called it) and have Delirium become Living Shadow A.K.A. True Darkside.

You could bring back Dark Passenger, make it GCD that costs MP, and have it combo into Flood of Darkness/Shadow, which then combos into Shadowbringer, and they all cost 3000 MP each, because the MP guzzling aspect of Dark Knight is enough to make it stand out from the other tanks, I just wish the MP spenders were GCDs, and I wish they gave Blood gauge, and restored HP equal to damage dealt per hit (see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details) and were DPS neutral in single target to Blood gauge spender at the start and ramps up, and you could make these share 1 button space like Gnashing Fang combo or Confiteor combo.

Edge of Darkness/Shadow you could make it become a GCD weaponskill that cost 20 Blood gauge, that combos into Bloodspiller that costs 15 Blood Gauge, that combos into Carve and Spit that also cost 15 Blood gauge, and they could restore MP and restore HP equal to damage dealt(see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details), and you could also make these share 1 button.

You could make Quietus cost 15 Blood gauge and have restore MP, and make Abyssal Drain a GCD that cost 3000 MP that restore Blood gauge, make both restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit(see the Melee DPS role action Bloodbath for more details), and people would would try to find a use for these.

Dark Arts button we can bring back as 60 second cooldown which grants 3 Dark Arts charges, which double the potency of all actions, ignore resources for 3 actions and if used on Dark Passenger, Flood of Darkness/Shadow, and/or Shadowbringer it converts Dark Arts into a new resource called Blood Arts which is basically triples damage dealt for Blood gauge spenders, but only in combat. The Blackest Night have the MP cost removed, but would need it's recast timer increased to 25 seconds, and if falls off 1 Dark Arts charge, if it breaks it grants 3 instead.

You could bring back 4.3 Sole Survivor, buff it to where it increase damage dealt to enemies by 5%(or damage enemies receive to better understand it) and reduce the amount of damage that those enemies would deal to players by 10%, have it be 2 charges, and it would give Dark Knight a raid buff that's good against bosses and also good in dungeons. Not good for when bosses become non-targetable to keep it balanced

You could give the Dark Mind the Addle treatment, and it would feel less bad against physical tank busters.

You could make Living Dead just be a 20 second invuln that drops your HP to 1(you still take damage) that restores HP equal to damage dealt by 300%, and it would be better than Holmgang, and justify the 300 second cooldown. Yes I am aware that the other tanks would complain about their invuln not being as long as Living Dead but that's the point.

All of this would make up for the fact that Dark Knight would no longer have oGCD spam, and feel a lot less janky to play and would probably make Dark Knight be SO MUCH better than when it first launched in Heavensward.

Also Red Mage would probably feel SO MUCH better to play if it generated White and Black Mana consistantly in increments of 10.

If you really mean "White and Black Mana" together, there'd be only 2 GCDs of casting between each melee combo, as the melee combo itself has 3 generators after the 3 spenders. If you remove their generation, it's still only 5 GCDs of building for every 6 GCDs of spending, which would gut the burst available to those spenders.

If you mean each generates "White or Black Mana" then you encounter a further issue: What do you do with Jolt, Scatter/Impact, Scorch, and Resolution? If you have Jolt likewise work in consistent increments of 10, then people would just ignore their elemental casts in favor of faster combo preps unless you massively change their balance of potencies. And in either case, you've still increased Mana generation by 67 to 400% depending on the skill, again meaning that your spenders can barely have any burst.

Though I am also okay with Darkside being a passive trait that you don't need to turn on and maintain, same with Living Shadow being a trait that just boosts potency by up to 300

Where/when/how did balance hurt you so badly? Having LS effectively just boost potency is fine, but if you just make it permanent then... there's no gameplay there, only a balancing nightmare that would leave DRK missing two-thirds of its damage until level 80.

I'm not suggesting a traited global speed increase on DRK. What I'm actually doing is turning Delirium into a modified version of Enshroud on DRK. If you add a second action (in this case, Torcleaver) that directly combos off of Bloodspiller and reduce both GCDs to 1.5s, then you're essentially turning Delirium into a 6 GCD burst. Every two blood GCDs you gain a free Edge/Flood that you weave into the mix.

As much as I liked Blood Weapon's speed boost, I've actually grown to love having a few dedicated 1.5s GCDs so much more. It just feels good.

I'm not a fan of how they don't scale with SkS and would prefer a simple 60% GCD length instead of the fixed timer, but yeah, I'd be cool with that. I'd rather have a more noticeable pacing difference of fewer -40% GCD recast times than many more -10% or -15% GCD recast times.

I don't mind Living Shadow conceptually, but the design concept feels a bit clunky because of the summoning lag. It probably would have been better off going the Bunshin route

I'd still like to see the separate unit, but wouldn't mind it just summoning in more quickly and attacking each time you attack (effectively, just a flat ST or AoE GCD potency increase or %damage increase on your GCDs over the duration) instead of being solely a DoT.

[Lyth]

I'm not suggesting a traited global speed increase on DRK. What I'm actually doing is turning Delirium into a modified version of Enshroud on DRK. If you add a second action (in this case, Torcleaver) that directly combos off of Bloodspiller and reduce both GCDs to 1.5s, then you're essentially turning Delirium into a 6 GCD burst. Every two blood GCDs you gain a free Edge/Flood that you weave into the mix.

As much as I liked Blood Weapon's speed boost, I've actually grown to love having a few dedicated 1.5s GCDs so much more. It just feels good.

I don't mind Living Shadow conceptually, but the design concept feels a bit clunky because of the summoning lag. It probably would have been better off going the Bunshin route, which is somewhat in line with what you've suggested.

I do like the idea of interplay between MP and blood. I've been advocating for blood moves to generate MP and vice versa since Stormblood. MP is a slightly awkward system, however, and I feel that jobs are better off if they just use a unique dual resource system. It becomes a bit more complex to design around MP because you also have to account for passive ticks that continue during downtime periods, which ends up with generation either being too fast (Stormblood) or too slow (post-Shadowbringers). I think blood is a more predictable system, though, so building from blood to MP probably makes more sense than making it a recursive loop.

[mallleable]

I made this observation in another thread, but it seems like tanks can be placed into two categories in terms of rotational mechanics: knights, and berserkers. PLD, and GNB are knights which focus on using multiple combos, and WAR, and DRK are berserkers which focus on spamming heavy hitting attacks. So I feel like a way to get the warrior stink off DRK while maintaining berserker-like gameplay would be to give it a second combo to build towards like it's a knight -- it is a dark knight after all. Perhaps DRK's gcd rotation could resemble a knight's, and its ogcd rotation could resemble a berserkers.

Another thing that I feel needs to happen to make DRK feel a little more special -- and really lean into the themes of self-sacrifice is to figure out how to allow it to safely spend its own HP on attacks instead of MP in pve duties.

[Shurrikhan]

Another thing that I feel needs to happen to make DRK feel a little more special -- and really lean into the themes of self-sacrifice is to figure out how to allow it to safely spend its own HP on attacks instead of MP in pve duties.

This can be done, but it'd have to follow certain constraints... most of which would provide the same affordance but less flexibly than just using MP (with all MP spenders offering at least some indirect means of sustain via a revised Dark Arts, etc.).

Thematically, I want it. Functionally, I'm not sure I want to deal with the gimmicking required.

Yes, of any job, HP spending actually makes the most sense as a potentially compelling mechanic on a tank, as that's the only role in which we both have pretty good control over our HP and for whom HP-spending wouldn't just be an awkward/convoluted indirect MP spending option (maintain Regen on self and occasionally Cure or Cure II self to throw out more HP-spending nukes). But it's still a can of worms. Doable, but not simply.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I made this observation in another thread, but it seems like tanks can be placed into two categories in terms of rotational mechanics: knights, and berserkers. PLD, and GNB are knights which focus on using multiple combos, and WAR, and DRK are berserkers which focus on spamming heavy hitting attacks. So I feel like a way to get the warrior stink off DRK while maintaining berserker-like gameplay would be to give it a second combo to build towards like it's a knight -- it is a dark knight after all. Perhaps DRK's gcd rotation could resemble a knight's, and its ogcd rotation could resemble a berserkers.

That's what I was trying to convey but unfortunately some people don't like that idea, and just want more damaging oGCDs for the sake of having more damaging oGCDs, send conflicting and mixed messages about what they want for Dark Knight which makes it seem like MULTIPLE PEOPLE are sharing 1 account, such as wanting the opener to be less cluttered and the only way to realistically to do that is convert a good chunk of oGCDs into GCDs and adding a haste effect of 20 - 25%, and I at least make an attempt to be consistent, and Dark Knight was clearly NEVER designed to be and oGCD spam job, just look at Carve and Spit with it's long animation that you never get to see because you got to keep that GCD rolling and it actually is enough to break my immersion.

Another thing that I feel needs to happen to make DRK feel a little more special -- and really lean into the themes of self-sacrifice is to figure out how to allow it to safely spend its own HP on attacks instead of MP in pve duties.

This is another one of those I never see happening anytime soon, not unless you give Dark Knight Bloodbath effects like there is no tomorrow, which is really the only realistic way of going about that, though it would at least fix the Dark Knight squishy-ness to some degree...

[Shurrikhan]

such as wanting the opener to be less cluttered and the only way to realistically to do that is convert a good chunk of oGCDs into GCDs and adding a haste effect of 20 - 25%

All it takes to make the opener less cluttered is to take some of those oGCDs from there... and put them somewhere else.

Which can be done with as little as just adding an MP cost to Shadowbringer and increasing Shadowbringer's potency by Edge's in compensation, thereby reducing the number of attacks that have to be fit inside the 2-minute burst by 2, which then allows space enough for defensives. Done.

It does not require turning most of DRK's oGCDs into GCDs.

[DRKoftheAzure]

All it takes to make the opener less cluttered is to take some of those oGCDs from there... and put them somewhere else.

Which can be done with as little as just adding an MP cost to Shadowbringer and increasing Shadowbringer's potency by Edge's in compensation, thereby reducing the number of attacks that have to be fit inside the 2-minute burst by 2, which then allows space enough for defensives. Done.

It does not require turning most of DRK's oGCDs into GCDs.

At this point you might as well just say that Stormblood Dark Arts spam was only underwhelming because the damage you dealt from it was not meaningful enough, and I already hate oGCD spam on a job that looks it's having trouble swing a huge sword or axe around, and I would rather have haste effect of 20% or 25%, and I would rather Dark Knight play more like Reaper than whatever job Dark Knight is trying to emulate in its current state. And I would go play Reaper but DPS ques atrocious for duty roulette, so I have to go on either Paladin or Gunbreaker, and Paladin does what Dark Knight is trying to do but so much better.

[Shurrikhan]

At this point you might as well just say that Stormblood Dark Arts spam was only underwhelming because the damage you dealt from it was not meaningful enough

No, our opener feeling crowded or not is just a matter of whether one even has time to hit any utility or defensive actions across that period and how low a ping is required to get one's burst actions out within raid buffs.

That's not a matter of tuning. That's a matter of concentration of obligatory casts.