I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[VentVanitas]

Wdym?

Just about every pre-shb sch player I meet wants their DoTs Back.
Similar with pre-ew smn players.

Also seen a few bard players annoyed that their DoTs aren't related to their procs anymore.

well sure people like us that discuss the game at length will more often than not want DoTs back for their jobs (hell you'd be hard to find a pre-ShB WHM player that doesn't want Aero 3 back too), but the general attitude I see towards them anywhere and not just the forums is pretty annoying and I frequently see a lot misinformation/misconceptions about them, like technical limitations and what not. additionally, you're still going to find a lot of resistance when bringing up the idea of returning DoTs to SMN and I don't like how much it can stifle discussion when talking about future changes for jobs.

perhaps the general mentality towards them would be more positive if the UI supported DoTs on multiple targets as well as making their impact on damage more noticeable.

[Sani2341]

well sure people like us that discuss the game at length will more often than not want DoTs back for their jobs (hell you'd be hard to find a pre-ShB WHM player that doesn't want Aero 3 back too), but the general attitude I see towards them anywhere and not just the forums is pretty annoying and I frequently see a lot misinformation/misconceptions about them, like technical limitations and what not. additionally, you're still going to find a lot of resistance when bringing up the idea of returning DoTs to SMN and I don't like how much it can stifle discussion when talking about future changes for jobs.

perhaps the general mentality towards them would be more positive if the UI supported DoTs on multiple targets as well as making their impact on damage more noticeable.

That's really not the sentiment I have seen about DoTs, be it on the forums, in game or on Reddit.

Most people don't care, current smn players, ime, seem to be Split between new ew players not wanting to loose their thought free ride and stubborn old smn players wanting their fun Back.

While there's the occasional grip re buff slots, the only ones I see disliking DoTs as a concept seems to be SE.

[IDontPetLalas]

well sure people like us that discuss the game at length will more often than not want DoTs back for their jobs (hell you'd be hard to find a pre-ShB WHM player that doesn't want Aero 3 back too), but the general attitude I see towards them anywhere and not just the forums is pretty annoying and I frequently see a lot misinformation/misconceptions about them, like technical limitations and what not. additionally, you're still going to find a lot of resistance when bringing up the idea of returning DoTs to SMN and I don't like how much it can stifle discussion when talking about future changes for jobs.

perhaps the general mentality towards them would be more positive if the UI supported DoTs on multiple targets as well as making their impact on damage more noticeable.

I would disagree. There has been a fair amount of positive feedback towards returning SCH's prior DPS skills . However, that's quite different from having all healers having the majority of their DPS skills being a dot-based healer, which I would be against. I would like a bit more individual identity/creativity (such as with PvP), so that each healer not only feels more distinct, but aligns with their individual design, abilities and offers a range between healing jobs.

[Colt47]

I think the rough around the edges parts on some healers kits is the MP management since they get tied to something that is intended to be used, but depending on what point in the patch cycle someone is on might not ever get used. They always do a good job at balancing things on the launch outside of end game, and then when they start fine tuning for end game and gear creep things break.

[IDontPetLalas]

I think the rough around the edges parts on some healers kits is the MP management since they get tied to something that is intended to be used, but depending on what point in the patch cycle someone is on might not ever get used. They always do a good job at balancing things on the launch outside of end game, and then when they start fine tuning for end game and gear creep things break.

We are still talking about healers here, right? "They always do a good job at balancing things on the launch outside of end game, and then when they start fine tuning for end game and gear creep things break."

So if I applied that, to say, SGE, you're saying that SGE was balanced aside from end game but broke at end game in your view? If that's what you're saying, I would disagree in part as there are still changes that would apply at any level.

[Tigore]

I think Colt is talking about how the classes feel like during different times spreading from expansion release to patch 6.55. The biggest offender would be the gear ilvl. I know WoW is a different game, but there are some factors that are similar. I can state an example with Holy Paladins who are excellent at single target heals with Beacon of Hope copying the full heal to the target during Wrath of the Lich King. So it's kind of like Kardion and Synastry on steroids.

Halls of Lightning final boss

Wrath of the Lich King Expansion release - this encounter features very juicy AoE pulses of lightning damage. Paladins had troubles with raid AoE healing and needed to use a glyph to add splash healing to off-targets. Something like 10% of the original healing. All 5 people had to stack pretty close. The boss also did a deadly nova on occasion that required everyone to get away at least 30 yards / yalms. The pulsing AoEs were still occurring, so everyone moved with the Paladin as they cycle targets with Flash of Light / Holy Light spam.

100 ilvls later with final patch - The Flash of Light and Holy Light casts as well as maximum party HP are now so powerful that the heals pretty much instantly heal 2 targets way beyond the damage of the AoE pulses. Nobody really needs to stack anymore as long as the Paladin continues to change targets with their heal spam.

[IDontPetLalas]

I think Colt is talking about how the classes feel like during different times spreading from expansion release to patch 6.55. The biggest offender would be the gear ilvl. I know WoW is a different game, but there are some factors that are similar. I can state an example with Holy Paladins who are excellent at single target heals with Beacon of Hope copying the full heal to the target during Wrath of the Lich King. So it's kind of like Kardion and Synastry on steroids.

Halls of Lightning final boss

Wrath of the Lich King Expansion release - this encounter features very juicy AoE pulses of lightning damage. Paladins had troubles with raid AoE healing and needed to use a glyph to add splash healing to off-targets. Something like 10% of the original healing. All 5 people had to stack pretty close. The boss also did a deadly nova on occasion that required everyone to get away at least 30 yards / yalms. The pulsing AoEs were still occurring, so everyone moved with the Paladin as they cycle targets with Flash of Light / Holy Light spam.

100 ilvls later with final patch - The Flash of Light and Holy Light casts as well as maximum party HP are now so powerful that the heals pretty much instantly heal 2 targets way beyond the damage of the AoE pulses. Nobody really needs to stack anymore as long as the Paladin continues to change targets with their heal spam.

Your comment regarding gear ilevel , which an important aspect that cuts across (probably) all jobs, is worded better (although in my case an example from WoW is not the best).

However if we take a look and apply this to a similar FFXIV example (let's say Aglaia qualifies, although that's recent) , healers would only not need to use all of their healing skills, now they have an extremely limited set of damage skills. So, unless they happen to be inexperienced or in a party that happens to mess up/be undergeared they have have a limit number of ways to contribute. If I had picked a dungeon, they could even end up being replaced by another role in some cases.

Hence my comment about healer design at its core having some fundamental flaws.

[Tigore]

I think for our case in FF14, the Dead Ends could be compared to our most recent Lunarian 4 man dungeon. The final boss for the Dead Ends has quite a bit AoE damage. I could end it with a good amount of MP if I cycle almost all of the cooldowns, but I would definitely run more dry on mana if I used maybe just half the healing cooldowns. As for our most recent dungeon, it usually follows our 70 - 90% graphs for Dosis / Glare / Malefic / Broil spam. Most of the damage are telegraphed AoEs we can dodge. The unavoidable damage is comparable to a slap on everyone's face that is easily countered with a WHM's Assize that actually gains mana instead of using mana. I use Liturgy during the stack marker on me, but more so just because. I probably could have chosen Asylum and it would still be the correct answer since the next mech is yet another avoidable attack. Oh and did I mention the next 2 after that are also avoidable? lol The boss was trying to sound scary while I am yawning with my mana only being used to Glare spam him. Only thing that would actually kill at this moment would be the dreaded lag spikes.

As a conclusion, Bole appears to also be right that we had some over-corrections. The healing power from raising gear ilvl is so strong that I can't remember using Medica 2 ever once we got past the Dead Ends. Even when I did use it for the level 87 dungeon, the Thin Air cooldown negated the mana cost. All of our mana free cooldowns were usually sufficient to counter the unavoidable stuff. So in essence, it still factors in for our mana management that we barely ever have to touch our GCD mana heals.

As for SGE mana regen, one of my Savage player friends also joked about how we could just throw a random Druochole to a full health target in a 4 man and not care because we got our 7% mana, lol. Of course, I am talking about the middle of the patch cycle to our current end cycle.

[Colt47]

They’re specifically talking about MP management. For SCH and AST, MP management is tied to cards and Aetherflow, so they are tools that you should be using regardless of where you are in the patch cycle. That leaves WHM and SGE. SGE’s method of managing MP always felt bad. Whether or not you’ll use those tools is not only patch dependent but also depends on the content.

And if we talking about the previous expansion, MP management was undertuned for 2 of the 3 healers in 5.0 - the costs of some skills was too high and there weren’t MP recovery tools (energy drain). By the end of the expansion, I think they had overcorrected with AST.

Basically, yes.

[GartredZW]

I'm a healer main normally, but as I've started to become more acquainted with DPS and Tank classes, I've started to realize just how lackluster healing is when you have a competent group.
I don't want some crazy complex damage rotation that punishes actual healing, that'd be ridiculous and counter intuitive. Over-healing doesn't generate a ton of Aggro any more, so there's no real reason to discourage it. Hence why it's fine for SGE's MP to be tied to Addersgall usage.
Here's a couple ideas I had for Scholar in particular since it's my main.
Add in a long-cast GCD spell that does roughly the damage of 1.8 Broil casts at a 5 second cast time. Whenever you do a Broil cast on an enemy with your DoT on it, it gives you a 20% chance to get a buff to reduce that super-broil's cast time to a 100% GCD cast (2.5s at no spell speed) the buff to use this super-broil could last a long time so you have the freedom to GCD Heal as necessary while you wait.
Perhaps this proc could be used on two different skills, the filler super-broil, and another super-bio. An extra DoT that does more damage and can be stacked with your normal DoT, meaning you have a moment-to-moment choice on what to spend your proc on. For this, the buff could stack a few times so you can hold it until the DoT is about to fall off, or just make it double-stack if you don't want it to be too limiting to optimize. I like the idea of having healers double-stack their standard DoTs, but only if there's some more complexity added to replace the timing optimization aspect.

Just this will make it so much more engaging without distracting at all from the healing. As it stands, DPS rotations on healers is as simple as using things on cooldown like Astro and Sage, or using things at the right time like Scholar and White Mage (admittedly, I haven't gotten WHM past 50, so correct me if I'm wrong on that.)