I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Mithron]

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

[Deceptus]

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

Honestly? As many as tanks. Because we only really heal them for tank busters and the dps for raidwide damage.

[Supersnow845]

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

The way the game is designed means that we will functionally never be able to spend more than 5-10% of GCD’s or about 25% of total action presses on healing so I want my rotation my reflect that, a rotation that includes 5-6 damage buttons (SCH’s DOT juggling or a version of DNC’s base 1^3^5 2^4^6 are good examples)

I’m totally in favour of oGCD’s being nerfed or deleted to up the amount of times u have to cast succor but healers should be like tanks (not in rotational design but relative complexity, if the tank was only allowed to stand there and cast flash to hold agro and press defensives there is a limit to how many defensives they can press before they just aren’t needed, healers are exactly the same

[ForsakenRoe]

Been playing Season of Discovery in WOW. Playing Paladin mostly as tank but sometimes I heal (for faster dungeon finding). Thanks to runes, the special 'gimmick' of the season, gameplay is similar to here, 60-70% GCDs spent on damage, the rest on healing. Difference is that I have a lot more damage buttons there than I do here, and it's a frankenstein of a 20 year old game with a 'twist' stitched into it very haphazardly (sometimes bugs happen with it, like questgivers dialog bugs out if it's rune related, and you have to do /reload to fix it)

When I'm healing on Paladin, I've got:

Autoattacks, they do actual damage
Seals to make autoattacks have extra effects, such as MP restore (Wisdom), HP (Light), extra damage (Righteousness) or attackspeed (Crusader)
Judgement to unleash the effect of the Seal, such as Crusader amplifying holy damage on the target, or Light allowing anyone hitting the target to heal ala Bloodbath. Of note is Righteousness, as it is flat holy damage, so doing this every 10s is another way to attack

Consecration, 8s CD, drops an AOE that deals DOT damage with no target cap, lasts 8s, pretty mana intensive though
Crusader Strike, 6s CD, restores 5% of my mana, is considered a melee hit
Divine Storm, 10s CD, hits 4 enemies, heals for 25% of the total damage dealt
Exorcism, 15s CD, deals damage, guaranteed crit on Demon or Undead enemy types
Holy Shock, 30s CD, deals damage or heals depending on target
Sheath of Light, passive that makes me have 30% of my physical attack power be added to my magic attack power rating for 1min each time I hit an enemy (aka 100% uptime), makes my heals stronger too
The Art of War, getting a melee crit (autoattack, Divine Storm, Crusader Strike) instantly resets the CD on Exorcism and Holy Shock

Blessing of Might increases physical attack power for target (yes that means party members not just me)
Blessing of Wisdom gives MP regen
Blessing of Salvation reduces threat generated (rip Smokescreen)
Blessing of Light makes your heal GCDs stronger by a flat amount
Blessing of Freedom removes slows/roots
Blessing of Protection prevents all physical damage to the target but prevents them from dealing physical damage

Devotion Aura gives bonus armor to all nearby allies
Retribution Aura causes reflect damage to enemies that hit any ally physically
Concentration Aura helps prevent spell pushback (the part of Surecast we never make use of)
Shadow/Frost/Fire Res Aura reduces damage dealt by those elements

Oh yeh and Hammer of Justice, a 60s CD stun. Its fun having more damage buttons, and having impactful utilities. Who knew?

Ideally? 50/50 split.
I will say, personally, even if they gave us an in-depth damage kit, that only fixes half of our problems. The other half of our problems is that we spend most of our time using the downtime kit in the first place.
A proper fix would have in-depth damage kit with increased healing requirements. Uptime and downtime kit improved hand-in-hand.

Basically where I'd stand on it too, just adding more damage rotation isn't the fix on its own, but it's a start. The biggest issue though is WHM. Given it's so GCD heavy on it's healing kit, it skews the question somewhat, as it doesn't have OGCDs to pad out the 50% we'd ask for, so for WHM specifically the ratio would be different I think. And then for AST, the issue is kind of reversed, with card gameplay bloating the OGCD side of the ratio

(SCH’s DOT juggling or a version of DNC’s base 1^3^5 2^4^6 are good examples)

DNC without the dances would be a good amount of complexity for the damage, I think. a two step rotation, two procs to react to, a poolable resource (up to 4) and a 0-100 gauge that is spent on a big hit. So if we remove Fan Dance 1-2-3, and just have the 'feathers' used on FD4 (so it has use in ST and AOE), have the four base GCDs for ST (and just one with it's associated proc for AOE to save buttons), and maybe change Saber Dance to be a cool strong healing GCD (which refunds itself by being damage neutral, EG by forcing the procs on the 1-2 combo, or by giving a free use of FanDance4), then we'd have a good level of complexity I think, with many directions to 'add to' for later expansions designwise (Eg, a Flourish move to force procs, another gauge spender, 'feather' spender, etc)

edit:

What do you guys think about only tanks having access to mitigation/party mitigation abilities, only healers having access to party DPS buffing abilities and all DPS being selfish DPS jobs with their own unique playstyles? Personally, I prefer DPS having party DPS buffing abilities too because I don't think jobs like BRD and RDM would fulfill their class fantasy if they were both just selfish DPS.

Sounds 'interesting' in some regards, but given they can't make the tanks/healers feel 'distinct' enough from one another, we'd probably end up with the DPS feeling very samey too. It does confuse me why they felt RPR needed to have the 3% damage buff though. Ideally Viper will be selfish like SAM, so that Scouting mains can choose between Selfish and Raidbuffer easily

The issue isn't DPS having party-buffs, the issue I think is that they're too similar in what the buffs do, they're all just damage, crit rate or dhit rate (aka crit rate 2). We can't have GCD haste because it screws people's rotation alignment. We can't have ability recast reduction, because the 2min meta is so important now that misalignment is devastating to the raid's damage. They've painted themselves into a corner designwise on what buff effects we can actually have, so we just get 'X% damage dealt increase' reskinned several times

[hunter2]

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

I went and counted how many hotbar buttons tanks and healers currently have for damage vs non-damage (not the percentage of spent GCDs, just hotbar space).
Tanks have an average of about 18 damage buttons to 15 non-damaging buttons while healers have an average of 6 damage buttons to 24 non-damaging buttons. Even Astrologian with Draw, Play, Redraw, Divination, Lightspeed, Astrodyne and Minor Arcana doesn't come close to having as many damage buttons as Warrior, the easiest tank.

[ty_taurus]

I went and counted how many hotbar buttons tanks and healers currently have for damage vs non-damage (not the percentage of spent GCDs, just hotbar space).
Tanks have an average of about 18 damage buttons to 15 non-damaging buttons while healers have an average of 6 damage buttons to 24 non-damaging buttons. Even Astrologian with Draw, Play, Redraw, Divination, Lightspeed, Astrodyne and Minor Arcana doesn't come close to having as many damage buttons as Warrior, the easiest tank.

To be fair on both sides, I don't think every individual button as-is should count toward the amount of options each job actually has. For example, I don't count Glare and Holy as separate actions, because they are the same thing. One you use for bosses, the other you use for dungeon trash. If they were the same button, literally nothing would change for WHM gameplay. I also don't really count the 1-2-3 combos of tanks as separate actions because they're really just one long action separated across 3 GCDs. Upheaval and Orogeny are the same thing. Holy Spirit and Holy Circle are the same thing...

Yes they are separate actions, but what purpose do they serve? That's what really should matter when discussing the tools available to each job. What really matters for Warror, for example, would be the following:

1. Storm's Path Combo
2. Storms' Eye/AOE Combo
3. Tomahawk
4. Upheaval/Orogeny
5. Onslaught
6. Inner Release
7. Infuriate
8. Beast Gauge Spender (FC/IC/Decimate/CC)
9. Primal Rend

So that's really just 9 different things you're consistently interacting with, and Tomahawk is debatable given how little melee jobs are pushed out of melee range any more. Warrior is the most simple tank in terms of DPS complexity and does get some criticism for being just a little too simple.

[hunter2]

(...) Yes they are separate actions, but what purpose do they serve? That's what really should matter when discussing the tools available to each job. What really matters for Warror, for example, would be the following:

1. Storm's Path Combo
2. Storms' Eye/AOE Combo
3. Tomahawk
4. Upheaval/Orogeny
5. Onslaught
6. Inner Release
7. Infuriate
8. Beast Gauge Spender (FC/IC/Decimate/CC)
9. Primal Rend

So that's really just 9 different things you're consistently interacting with, and Tomahawk is debatable given how little melee jobs are pushed out of melee range any more. Warrior is the most simple tank in terms of DPS complexity and does get some criticism for being just a little too simple.

Yeah, button count is an imperfect indicator. You could cut Monk or Black Mage down to 10 buttons and they'd still be way more engaging than the average Tank rotation. But it's a really bad look for Healer design that even Warrior's level of dps complexity is far above what Healers are allowed to play with.

While we have a few interesting healing buttons, the dps side needs a drastic improvement before I'll pick up my nouliths/book/cane again.

[IDontPetLalas]

I went and counted how many hotbar buttons tanks and healers currently have for damage vs non-damage (not the percentage of spent GCDs, just hotbar space).
Tanks have an average of about 18 damage buttons to 15 non-damaging buttons while healers have an average of 6 damage buttons to 24 non-damaging buttons. Even Astrologian with Draw, Play, Redraw, Divination, Lightspeed, Astrodyne and Minor Arcana doesn't come close to having as many damage buttons as Warrior, the easiest tank.

I would agree, it's difficult to compare, some of those buttons that you're comparing on AST have fairly long CDs and they won't even necessarily be a damage button - minor arcana might give you a heal. I wouldn't even count draw and re-draw as damage buttons as they lead to play- those 3 could likely be reduced and still work

Really on AST you're looking at your dot #1 DPS, spamming your one DPS #2 DPS at at higher level earthly star #3 DPS (1 min CD) and macro #4 DPS (3 minCD), and timing your cards as required by content (e,g, 2 min) % DPS- with #2 (malefic) be spammed by far the most. OK, Ill grant you- yes minor arcana would make #6, however personally (and this is myself) I consider it rather underwhelming as I tend not to get whatever I want.

[Hyperia]

As a healer player myself. I get the feelings of envy Healers have for other jobs. But this effort to tear down some of the few well designed jobs in the game to make healer feel marginally better to play just isn't the move. Casting a few more GCD heals in a fight won't chane anything.

The problem is that enemies in this game have been de-fanged. The fact that wall-to-wall pulls are even possible in low level dungeons before anyone has their OP sustain tools should say everything.

If it takes the collective effort of an entire dungeon to even begin to threaten a tank's health pool, we have a problem. Sustain in 14 is actually very sparce compared to other MMOs, it only feels out of control because you barely need any sustain to offset the miniscule amounts of damage you take.

This is why I am contemplating retiring if healing does not get better in DT. As it stands right now, the only place where you can still see good trinity style healers at work is in fantasy or isakai anime.

[Aravell]

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

Ideally? 50/50 split.

I will say, personally, even if they gave us an in-depth damage kit, that only fixes half of our problems. The other half of our problems is that we spend most of our time using the downtime kit in the first place.

A proper fix would have in-depth damage kit with increased healing requirements. Uptime and downtime kit improved hand-in-hand.