Politics

[Chasingstars]

I thought Wuk Lamat said something along the lines of Tural adopting Eorzean as a unifying language between all of the different people that make up the country so that no one native language or culture dominates the others. Harmony between the local peoples is achieved by adopting a foreign script/tongue for inter-tribal communication. I don't believe that the bar sign necessarily means Eorzeans are directly involved but it's still a possibility. Just as I am still interested in how distinctly US-ish the aesthetic of Xak Tural is compared to Yok Tural though and if it has anything to do with Limsa Lominsa's influence during the initial exploration 80 years ago or Merlwyb's recent reestablished contact starting 20 years ago.


On a side note, "Yok" is obviously "South" and "Xak" is obviously "North". "Wuk" seems very similar to those and it wouldn't be unusual to name such an important character something symbolic so I wonder if "Wuk" is "West". I wonder if that would also mean that "Vik" or Vek" is "East".

Well the word on the sign reads Bar and its done in the eorezan typeface. But sadly we don't have a comparison for the Tural version of the typeface or written language.

I lean towards it being foreigners as in the 6.55 there is book on the origns of blue magic. One of the interesting curiosities about it is the author taught the whalaqee tribe the eorezan tongue in exchange for magic training and living among them. Which would point to Martyn, as the author refers to blue magic as a "noble magic" as Whastrach didn't value it. Another quirk of the book is that the term blue magic didn't exist before in the "common tongue", so the whalaqee of the new world have a different word for the same magic.

EDIT: Obviously for us the player foreign language is a non-issue as we have the echo which allows us to understand all sorts of things. And the reason for the blue mage talk is to show that any usage of a more common language is more of a recent invention that eorezans brought over.

[Iscah]

Well the word on the sign reads Bar and its done in the eorezan typeface. But sadly we don't have a comparison for the Tural version of the typeface or written language.

There is also potential for the Eorzean text to be early-concept placeholder text and it will be updated to Turali for the final version.

[Chasingstars]

There is also potential for the Eorzean text to be early-concept placeholder text and it will be updated to Turali for the final version.

I mean that is also true, the picture of the bar even has that as a disclaimer.

[MikkoAkure]

Well the word on the sign reads Bar and its done in the eorezan typeface. But sadly we don't have a comparison for the Tural version of the typeface or written language.

I lean towards it being foreigners as in the 6.55 there is book on the origns of blue magic. One of the interesting curiosities about it is the author taught the whalaqee tribe the eorezan tongue in exchange for magic training and living among them. Which would point to Martyn, as the author refers to blue magic as a "noble magic" as Whastrach didn't value it. Another quirk of the book is that the term blue magic didn't exist before in the "common tongue", so the whalaqee of the new world have a different word for the same magic.

EDIT: Obviously for us the player foreign language is a non-issue as we have the echo which allows us to understand all sorts of things. And the reason for the blue mage talk is to show that any usage of a more common language is more of a recent invention that eorezans brought over.

I rewatched the cutscene and now I'm not sure how close or distant Turali is from Eorzean based on what Wuk said but the language change was "some time ago" which I took as being when Tuliyollal became a nation 80 years ago:

Wuk Lamat: Given how culturally diverse Tuliyollal is, it was decided some time ago that a common language was needed.
Wuk Lamat: But instead of elevating an existing tongue, and its speakers, above all others, we looked to those widely spoken overseas and created an altogether new one.
Wuk Lamat: These similarities to your common tongue also make it quite easy to communicate in these situations, no?
Wuk Lamat: This letter, however, is entirely in Eorzean. If Father had written this, it would have been in Turali.

We know Ketenramm, a Lominsan, was bouncing around the continent right at the same time Gulool Ja Ja unified the region under Tuliyollal so he's probably the genesis point of the language. Wuk Lamal also has no problem communicating with us, same with all of the Mamool Ja we've ran into at this point. I think it's still a toss-up as to whether the 1 word we see is an Eorzean loanword on a sign in a fully Turali town or if Eorzeans are directly involved there. I got the feeling that the whole ceruleum fiasco with the Whalaqee was a one-time thing since everyone was hyper-focused on their land specifically instead of anywhere else with ceruleum, but I wouldn't put it passed the writers to take old lore and milk it more than it needs to be.

This also brings me back to the multiple background Miqo'te in the Dawntrail trailer. Their clothes look Eorzean, but we know Wuk Lamat has a Miqo'te brother so they could be Eorzean-influenced people from Xak Tural since that goes with the whole Arizona vibe.

[Chasingstars]

I rewatched the cutscene and now I'm not sure how close or distant Turali is from Eorzean based on what Wuk said but the language change was "some time ago" which I took as being when Tuliyollal became a nation 80 years ago:


We know Ketenramm, a Lominsan, was bouncing around the continent right at the same time Gulool Ja Ja unified the region under Tuliyollal so he's probably the genesis point of the language. Wuk Lamal also has no problem communicating with us, same with all of the Mamool Ja we've ran into at this point. I think it's still a toss-up as to whether the 1 word we see is an Eorzean loanword on a sign in a fully Turali town or if Eorzeans are directly involved there. I got the feeling that the whole ceruleum fiasco with the Whalaqee was a one-time thing since everyone was hyper-focused on their land specifically instead of anywhere else with ceruleum, but I wouldn't put it passed the writers to take old lore and milk it more than it needs to be.

This also brings me back to the multiple background Miqo'te in the Dawntrail trailer. Their clothes look Eorzean, but we know Wuk Lamat has a Miqo'te brother so they could be Eorzean-influenced people from Xak Tural since that goes with the whole Arizona vibe.

Right, and the fact they have in those 3 quests the nature of the language, written and spoken, and then also throw in the blue mage book to further emphasis the language barrier suggests its more a recent thing to have a more unified language. Which the only representative you ever speak to of the Whalaqee tribe, so far is Ceadda, who is a young boy and speaks fluently. Which we don't know how long Martyn was with them for teaching them a language. So it creates a "chicken or egg" scenario. If its pre-Martyn then the teaching of the language would be easier for him because of the Turali language being very similar for talking. If it occurs during his stay it would start off hard to teach but become easier over time with the new Turali language. If its after, then it would have just been doing it entirely from scratch where a good deal of time is just trying to teach them a language.

The clothes thing is an easy thing to dismiss as its easier to get one culture to wear a shirt than it is to understand a whole other language.

Oh right the letter. Which is entirely in eorezan, possibly dictated as Wuk Lamat suggests. Which begs the same question of the chicken or the egg. Was the dictation done with the new turali language, or was it done with the old language and someone who acted as a translator. Which as one might guess we don't have an answer to.

EDIT: Maybe there is something in the japanese version of the language? Different words used for a similar yet different context? For both Wuk Lamat and the blue book.

EDIT 2: So yes the author of the blue book, in japanese, taught the Whalaqee the "common tongue". Its not an english-only thing. There are other quirks in the book, similar yet different to the english version, but that is a different tangent. So potentially there is something in Wuk Lamat's text in japanese.

EDIT 3: Confirmed in japanese, each tribe over there spoke a different tongue. Also the Turali language was created based on "commonly used words around the globe" which made it easier to communicate. Also still the same about the letter being written by someone else.

[MikkoAkure]

Right, and the fact they have in those 3 quests the nature of the language, written and spoken, and then also throw in the blue mage book to further emphasis the language barrier suggests its more a recent thing to have a more unified language. Which the only representative you ever speak to of the Whalaqee tribe, so far is Ceadda, who is a young boy and speaks fluently. Which we don't know how long Martyn was with them for teaching them a language. So it creates a "chicken or egg" scenario. If its pre-Martyn then the teaching of the language would be easier for him because of the Turali language being very similar for talking. If it occurs during his stay it would start off hard to teach but become easier over time with the new Turali language. If its after, then it would have just been doing it entirely from scratch where a good deal of time is just trying to teach them a language.

I don’t put much stock in the blue book about a single random tribe for telling us when Turali was picked up as a language in the rest of the kingdom. Much of India to this day speaks neither Hindi nor English which are the two “official” languages.

To me it makes much more sense that the language was created around the moment of unification 80 years ago and slowly spread out to the more connected and closer parts of Tural as a trade/official language. Especially since the whole point of Turali was for unification.

Either way I’d say it’s 50/50 as to whether the infrastructure in Shaaloani is directly Eorzean or if it’s all native. Koana is a Turali prince staying at the studium who is technologically minded and Erenville is another native of Tural working for the scholars. The former could have very well brought the technology back to his homeland and the word “bar” could be an Eorzean loanword in Turali.

[Chasingstars]

I don’t put much stock in the blue book about a single random tribe for telling us when Turali was picked up as a language in the rest of the kingdom. Much of India to this day speaks neither Hindi nor English which are the two “official” languages.

To me it makes much more sense that the language was created around the moment of unification 80 years ago and slowly spread out to the more connected and closer parts of Tural as a trade/official language. Especially since the whole point of Turali was for unification.

Either way I’d say it’s 50/50 as to whether the infrastructure in Shaaloani is directly Eorzean or if it’s all native. Koana is a Turali prince staying at the studium who is technologically minded and Erenville is another native of Tural working for the scholars. The former could have very well brought the technology back to his homeland and the word “bar” could be an Eorzean loanword in Turali.

"Random tribe", Its literally one of the four books you read in 6.55. Just like the book that talks about popotos being brought from there or the other about alpacas over there.

As I mentioned before by digging into the JP version of the game, Turali is a language that was born from using the most common words around the world. Their entire language is loanwords.

Time is important.

Ketenramm sailed to the New World 1497, in 1498 he arrives in the new world and first meets with the mamool ja, in 1499 he first goes to the capital and gives the Mamool Ja silver as a gift, 1500 when he first arrived back to Limsa Lominsa.

We also know it took Ketenramm "two moons", aka 2 months, to get there in the first place. Which means he sailed in our equivalent of november and arrived in the new world on January. Then he took at least two months setting up a base camp with his crew and living there until he first met the mamool ja. Then he spent several moons there until he returned home.

In fact its only in 1500 when other sailors tried to sail to the new world as a new golden age for exploration. But it was a journey with a lot of danger and shipwrecks. Which would mean that while there is a potential trade route, there is no guarantee that a ship going to or coming from the new world would make it back. Ketenramm was the exception.

We the players are still in the year 1577, the same year where we beat up Gaius at his castrum. That what I am saying is if the language was born from trade, it would have been at the latest, 79 years ago based on his stay there, 78 if it was made the year they decided to have trade routes with Limsa. And this is just me being charitable. As the people of Tural are likely multi-lingual before if they could have, as according to Wuk Lamat, 80 Years of Peace.

Krille is 22. Krille's grandfather who got the letter is 60. The letter has faded writing. For inking to fade from paper that usually takes one or more decades. The letter was under a mess of paperwork and was basically shielded from direct sunlight, which sunlight, can cause inked writing on parchment to fade faster.

[Chasingstars]

"Random tribe", Its literally one of the four books you read in 6.55. Just like the book that talks about popotos being brought from there or the other about alpacas over there.

As I mentioned before by digging into the JP version of the game, Turali is a language that was born from using the most common words around the world. Their entire language is loanwords.

Time is important.

Ketenramm sailed to the New World 1497, in 1498 he arrives in the new world and first meets with the mamool ja, in 1499 he first goes to the capital and gives the Mamool Ja silver as a gift, 1500 when he first arrived back to Limsa Lominsa.

We also know it took Ketenramm "two moons", aka 2 months, to get there in the first place. Which means he sailed in our equivalent of november and arrived in the new world on January. Then he took at least two months setting up a base camp with his crew and living there until he first met the mamool ja. Then he spent several moons there until he returned home.

In fact its only in 1500 when other sailors tried to sail to the new world as a new golden age for exploration. But it was a journey with a lot of danger and shipwrecks. Which would mean that while there is a potential trade route, there is no guarantee that a ship going to or coming from the new world would make it back. Ketenramm was the exception.

We the players are still in the year 1577, the same year where we beat up Gaius at his castrum. That what I am saying is if the language was born from trade, it would have been at the latest, 79 years ago based on his stay there, 78 if it was made the year they decided to have trade routes with Limsa. And this is just me being charitable. As the people of Tural are likely multi-lingual before if they could have, as according to Wuk Lamat, 80 Years of Peace.

Krille is 22. Krille's grandfather who got the letter is 60. The letter has faded writing. For inking to fade from paper that usually takes one or more decades. The letter was under a mess of paperwork and was basically shielded from direct sunlight, which sunlight, can cause inked writing on parchment to fade faster.

In fact it gets even easier to pin this point down:

1500: Ketenramm talked of the new world and inspired other sailors, however the waters are too dangerous for most.
1535: Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn is born.
1555: Merlwyb is now twenty and leads the League of Lost Bastards on a expedition into the new world.
1556: Merlwyb returns back to Limsa Lominsa, having discovered a safe passage to the new world.
1559: Merlwyb goes on another trade expedition into the new world, this time with an armed merchant armada.

Source - Encyclopedia Eoreza Volume 1

So since the first time there was a trade expedition was 1559, the new Turali language has an 18 year window as this is itself a pidgin language AKA a trade language. What makes a language a pidgin language is it can be built from words, sounds, or body language from a multitude of languages as well as onomatopoeia. And since Wuk Lamat states its a language from using "commonly used words around the globe" in the JP version of the game, it confirms its a pidgin language. Pidgin languages are not initially meant for writing, they are meant for merchants who are speaking with other cultures. Its not impossible for a pidgin language to develop into a fully fleshed out language, but it doesn't start out as one meant for writing.

EDIT: And since the letter is faded, that means it has 21 year window as that is the latest anyone else could safely travel to the new world.

EDIT 2: Also if trade expedition causes a language to be created within those 18 years, that means that people of the new world in the 80 Years of Peace were getting along just fine in being multilingual for at least 62 Years.

[MikkoAkure]

So since the first time there was a trade expedition was 1559

Ketenramm did multiple expeditions 80 years ago, not just one. It's said in one of the same books you were looking at:

Ketenramm would return to Tural several times

Merlwyb discovered the first safe passage west.

Considering he was there when the kingdom was created and Wuk Lamat said the language was created "some time ago", I took that all to mean that it was a part of the initial unification 80 years ago. The letter could very well be written by Ketenramm since we don't know when he died or when he stopped going west or even if he just stayed west.

Regardless, I would still say it could go either way on that town shown being Eorzean or Turali but I lean towards Turali since we know there's a Miqo prince, who could be the same prince as the one who has an interest in technology and has been to the Studium, and could be of the same people as the suspenders-wearing Miqo'te from the trailer and they could have been speaking Turali-Eorzean pidgin and had a script this whole time.

[Chasingstars]

Ketenramm did multiple expeditions 80 years ago, not just one. It's said in one of the same books you were looking at:


Merlwyb discovered the first safe passage west.

Considering he was there when the kingdom was created and Wuk Lamat said the language was created "some time ago", I took that all to mean that it was a part of the initial unification 80 years ago. The letter could very well be written by Ketenramm since we don't know when he died or when he stopped going west or even if he just stayed west.

Regardless, I would still say it could go either way on that town shown being Eorzean or Turali but I lean towards Turali since we know there's a Miqo prince, who could be the same prince as the one who has an interest in technology and has been to the Studium, and could be of the same people as the suspenders-wearing Miqo'te from the trailer and they could have been speaking Turali-Eorzean pidgin and had a script this whole time.

Yes but the book makes the distinction between an Expedition and a Trade Expedition. When Merlwyb first started charting this was just an expedition like Ketenramm's, the book then later notes 3 years after her charting she embarks on a Trade Expedition.

EDIT:

Over the Horizon (found in Gubal Library)

“Though there is some debate as to whether or not Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn and her League of Lost Bastards were the first Eorzeans to discover the western continent, there is no denying that their navigational charts were instrumental in establishing the major trade routes of today.

Moreover, the accounts from their expedition are widely regarded as both informative and entertaining. of particular note is their first encounter with the Mamool Ja, as well as other indigenous peoples and creatures which seemed curiously intent on their demise.

These travel journals have since inspired a legion of explorers and treasure hunters to retrace the League’s journey. Yet in spite of their numbers, the existence of a “bleedin’ city o’ gold” remains unconfirmed…”

EDIT 2: I do agree its probably gotten a pidgin written language now. As having major trade routes now and for 18 years likely caused the written and spoken tongue to radically change. And I do agree that its very possible that miqote at the studium and sharalyan itself were essentially bi-lingual in Turali and Eorezan. Which that is also evident with Erenville as he is bi-lingual.