Politics

[Palladiamors]

Well, all of our assumptions are only that. Wuk Lamat could be lying to us about outsiders being encouraged. Could be lying about the intent of her rivals. Could be lying about her own intent.

Now, that's not really XIV's soft serve, bouncy castle way these days, but it is not outside of the realm of possibility.

I'm not too worried about coming across as colonizers. We have no colony making efforts, and they mentioned this Super Secret Agent Prince Miqote who just so happened to seek a Sharlayan education for... reasons unexplained.

So I think in the end it'll come down to other factions getting eliminated, and Wuk Lamat taking up Sharlayan ideas maybe because Super Secret Agent Miqote brother implores her to after he's eliminated from the race.

Then all our different Scion factions will come together to beat the baddies. And everything will be hunkidori. Kumbaya.

Also though, it's something of a problem in this subforum for a lot of users to read someone's takes, and then write them off as trolls/bad faith etc. Simply for seeing the story in a different light. Ironically, it's also somewhat bad faith itself, because intent was presumed, and a step even further was taken in insulting or belittling the poster with aggravating takes. This is a public forum, so if you want to curate your experience, please use the ignore/block feature. It's not that hard. And yes, you'll still see quotes or boxes scrunching up their conversations, but you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

There was no belittling of Silvermoon. Cleretic simply pointed out that her takes are often divorced from reality. Zavos, on the other hand, straight up attacked Cleretic for pointing this out with zero prior knowledge of either poster and weaved an entire narrative around how Cleretic was ignorant. After that I merely pointed out that Zavos was morally grandstanding and acting superior while also having zero evidence to back anything up.

And here's the kicker: For all we know Wuk could wind up being the major villain of Dawntrail. But right now there is less than zero pointing to that. She's friends with Erenville and we trust him and while he doesn't want to admit to being close to her, he did tell her about us and help her find us. We know she's a blowhard, combat scares her even though she is very skilled. We know her county encourages their claimants to seek outside help and Erenville not refuting that while outright agreeing with her about mystery claimant X backs all that up. We know that we haven't agreed to help and we know two of the Scions are backing another candidate.

None of that in any way form or fashion points to colonization or installing a figurehead or starting a war. Actually pretty much most of it points to the opposite. Which I'm starting to realize is probably why modern day writers are moving away from subtlety.

[Lyth]

I think the bigger question in this debate is: 'So what?'

You wanted choice, and now you have it. If you want to forcibly create a textual reading where you head off to Tural as kingmaker and conqueror, all the power to you. All this sanctimonious moral posturing surely gets tiresome after a while. If you've spent the past story arc dreaming about being an Ascian edgelord, then surely this is the golden opportunity that you've always been waiting for. If this is meant to be a vacation, then let it be an evil vacation. Let it all out.

I'm personally disappointed that we only get to choose from four candidates. If I'm going to install a proxy dictator to rule over Tural in my stead, surely I should have a degree of choice in the matter. I'm personally leaning towards Ezel II.

If the flying pig is not an option, then at least let us re-glamour our chosen despot, like the custom delivery system allows. After all, who do you think dressed Aymeric up as a blue elephant in the first place?

I'm sorry, am I missing sarcasm here?

Irony, mixed with caricature. I'm only mad north-northwest. When the wind blows southerly, I can tell a hawk from a handsaw.

...

Lore is a relatively small community, where some interpersonal interactions have developed over multiple years. You're observant to notice that it's unusual for someone to have such a strong opinion of someone with whom they've never interacted with before. If you watch closely, you'll also see that there's also a recurring trend to the target.

[MikkoAkure]

We're not "investigating" we've agreed to compete in a contest to put a stranger in power for a free boat ride. The fact you have to downgrade our actions to "investigating" proves my point that what we're doing is both unwise and unethical.

You can do more than one thing at the same time. We’re very obviously going over to see what is going on as well as putting in a little adventure and helping cat princess.

We went to Doma to cause a diversion to help our main cause in Ala Mhigo and at the same time help put a prince on the throne after his retainers asked for it. We ended up becoming temporary khagan (until the next nadaam) by helping a tribe who asked for it too. Was that colonization then?

And please don't call me delusional. How people get away with insulting me so much on this forum is ridiculous.

I said:
“if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.”

as in you’d have to be delusional to think a world war could be in people of Tural’s best interest but if you do, holy crap. A bunch of unaffiliated Eorzeans going to the west is bad, but a larger and more powerful western empire colonizing Eorzea is OK as long as it’s in their people’s best interest? When is a war for conquest in anyone’s best interest except for their ruler/ruling class?

[Lady_Silvermoon]

You can do more than one thing at the same time. We’re very obviously going over to see what is going on as well as putting in a little adventure and helping cat princess.

We went to Doma to cause a diversion to help our main cause in Ala Mhigo and at the same time help put a prince on the throne after his retainers asked for it. We ended up becoming temporary khagan (until the next nadaam) by helping a tribe who asked for it too. Was that colonization then?




I said:
“if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.”

as in you’d have to be delusional to think a world war could be in people of Tural’s best interest but if you do, holy crap. A bunch of unaffiliated Eorzeans going to the west is bad, but a larger and more powerful western empire colonizing Eorzea is OK as long as it’s in their people’s best interest? When is a war for conquest in anyone’s best interest except for their ruler/ruling class?

Yes, I did take issue with what we did in the nadaam. I watched other people play and get annoyed they had to pick up poop because they are the "chosen one" and my stance was we are showing up in these people's land to take control of their government in order to make them fight in a war for us...shut up and pick up the poop. And while I thought what we were doing was wrong, I wasn't nearly as bothered by it because at the time I viewed my WoL as a good fighter with a divine blessing that popped in whenever she was about to die. Keep in mind, that's the expansion where Zenos kicks our teeth in on a regular basis.

But thanks to EW, I am unfortunately aware that we're a super soldier built to save the universe on a pyre of billions of human sacrifices. So now what we do with that power impacts me a bit more. Since everyone here has memorized my post history, I'm sure you're aware I can't even fish now without thinking about what the writers decided it took to bring my character into existence. The only reasons for Venat to set the Ascians free to do the Rejoinings is if she's trying to make us specifically. That realization literally haunts me.

So yes, I really wish we were doing something less stupid and unethical with that power than what we seem to be doing. Like if we were going there for reasons other than to put a complete stranger into power, I would be relieved. Because I was afraid we'd go in the direction we seem to be going in. Even if we met with all these people and each decided who we were gonna help after that, it would be less stupid than what we're currently doing. We know nothing about her policies, how she's viewed by her people, she just showed up and so we're gonna put a crown on her head.

Also, if the "threat" of a 1/4 claimant to the throne being a warmonger is enough reason to install our own, where does it stop? What if Hein's kid isn't a good guy, is it our job to put him down? What if Aymeric is replaced with a warmonger? Is it our job to go install someone else who will work in our interests? Why are we only installing rulers we like? Why don't we just force democracy on every land we go to?

Is it really our right to go around the world and shape it into whatever form suits us best because we have the power to do so? Oh wait, that's what Venat did, nevermind, I already know the stance there.

[Iscah]

I think there's one more consideration to make. As a shard of Azem, we're descended from a member of an elite, nepotistic circle of tyrannical despots who unilaterally made decisions on behalf of the rest of the world for thousands of years. From a roleplaying perspective, we need more opportunities to lean into that. There is a fantastic opportunity for us to build a clique of powerful friends that goes on to form a world government for the entire planet, ushering the shards into a new era of prosperity under our iron fist. Now that the Scions and Ascians are no more, we finally have the potential to make that dream into a reality. Consider the following:

Hildibrand

Vanhudi: Let's get straight to the point: I want you at my side. With the Vaunted Warrior of Light as the template for my clone army, we could conquer this and every other land in creation!

> 'That... that's not a bad idea, actually.'

Hildibrand: 'Ah... ha ha ha! A splendid jest, my friend. A splendid and... not-at-all-indicative-of-suppressed-megalomaniacal-ambitions jest... yes?'

<long silence>

(Lv.90, Gentlemen at Heart)

I'm sorry, am I missing sarcasm here? Because that sounds way outside the roleplaying scope of this narrative.

Mamool Ja mercenaries have been in Limsa Lominsa for 5 years and some have even broken away to make their own society in Vylbrand, butchered the locals to make their own castle, and actively assault adventurers. I don’t believe we’re going to Tural to do the same thing and the idea of such is flawed.

Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

[MikkoAkure]

Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

I thought about that as I typed that but let's open up the book and see what it says-

WAIT A SECOND.

Molaa Ja Ja's purpose for crossing the seas to Eorzea was to win glory and strengthen his claim to the throne of the Autarch, ruler of all Mamool Ja. Upon arriving, however, he struggled to find employment for his warband, and in a bid to make a name in this foreign land, he took the drastic step of capturing a piece of it.

"2-headed Mamool Ja ruling warbands and fighting each other over who will be Autarch" is old retconned lore, along with "Mamook" or "Mamool Ja" being the name of the nation, but it would be hilarious if we get all the way there to find out we already killed him.

I would expect that the 4(3?) princes/princesses are on the poster and the only unknowns to us are the Miqo in the white coat, the Mamool Ja at the bottom, and the mysterious Hyur on the top. Either they're all claimants, or one or two are not important (or alive) enough to be on the poster and the other characters are just other important characters.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

I would actually find that funny.

WoL whispers to G'raha: Is this like the 12 where we're not supposed to admit we've killed this guy?

[EdwinLi]

Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

I will not be surprised if that is the case.

WoL has done so many things already, it is hard to not have accidently resolve something before it happens.

I am more curious about how the Golden City is going to play into this though.

I am guessing one of the challenge for the throne may end up being to find the Golden City and claim whatever item the candidates need to get to win their tournament.

Either way, Wuk Lamat is acting as more than the person we are obviously going to support in the tournament for the throne. She is also our sponsor for adventuring into Tural to find the Golden City which we always have in each expansion when enter a new region. Though I do notice our sponsors tend to be involved in Politics most of the time.

WoL has been lucky so far with always getting Sponsors into new regions since those sponsors always cover a lot of basic needs for WoL where most adventurers had to pay out of their pockets or get permission directly from the Adventurer Guild.

At this point, it feels like every new expansion we should expect someone with political influence sponsoring the WoL for traveling into new regions since these guys always provide WoL his/her always free Inn rooms.

[NanaWiloh]

I'm sorry, am I missing sarcasm here? Because that sounds way outside the roleplaying scope of this narrative.




Plot twist: we already defeated the warmonger guy and the news just hasn't gotten around yet.

Plot twist: Pip is the warmonger

[Loggos]

To me the perspective, that we only help Wuk Lamat because it is ostensibly our interests that we try to satisfy first and foremost, really doesn't capture the (sub)text of the (short) 6.5.5 quest line.

Imo the story made it clear that it's the compassion for the people in Tural that motivates us (in classic hero/main character fashion - you can say this is cheesy and clichéd and yes, it probably is, but it's most likely our motivation nonetheless) because *they*'d be the ones who suffer first if they were to be dragged into a war.

In my eyes it was Wuk Lamat's strong reaction and her desire to avert the damage *to her own people* that was established as the primary argument by the narrative, which was also underscored by Erenville's supporting statement.

The latter is quite important imo because he serves as a grounded and down-to-earth contrast to Wuk Lamat's hotheadedness. If even someone as calm, smart and cunning as Erenville, who we can assume has the well-being of both the people of his old home Tural and his new home Eorzea on his mind, then it lends a lot more credibility to Wuk Lamat's endeavor.

If we are focusing on the argument of our interests, then it also has to be said that the warmonger is eyeing Garlemald first - a country that for the longest time has been *our* colonizer and brutal antagonist - so (from a purely selfish perspective - which I don't condone, bear with me for a second) the part of Eorzea we have personal ties (and thus a personal attachment) to wouldn't be the one to take the (first) hit of his aggressions. (There would be legitimate concern though that a warmongering nation is encroaching on our boarders and endangering our people, too, if they attack Garlemald.)

At the same time Garlemald is a broken country that has just started to process of rebuilding itself.

Don't get me wrong, I really didn't like how they handled (post-EW) Garlemald but as a matter of fact another war would be devastating for the people there. Protecting them from war is a very legitimate concern. It's not exploitative of Tural, it's literally just the humane act of acknowledging the Garlean common folk's right to safety from an act of aggression that they didn't start and would be *forced onto them*.

Lastly, as others have pointed out, preventing war in Eorzea is a legitimate reason to *support* Wuk Lamat in something she wants to do *for her people* anways.

We are not instrumentalizing her. We are not instigating her to do anything.


I disagree with the premise that "acting in our own interest" is inherently colonialist irrespective of the context.

It's a bit ironic to me that we are supposedly the colonizers when the warmonger's interests...are quite literally...colonization. *He* wants to go to other countries to subjugate them. That is colonization.

Trying to prevent that is again not exploiting Tural in a colonialist way.

If our interest is "not being attacked and forced into a war that would bring lots of suffering for our people" then preventing that war - a war that, again, is also *not* in the interest of the Turali commoners it seems - is a sensible concern.

It's a *reactive* attempt to ensure intercontinental peace by answering the call of *someone from that nation who wants to ensure peace for her people*, not a proactive plan to install a ruler that acts as our proxy or metaphorical arm to enforce a broader official Eorzean geopolitical agenda and establish any kind of Eorzean dominance or hegemony in the region. Nor is there any desire to get access to their resourcers, their land or anything.

It is literally just about peace *in Tural* first and foremost, and about peace in Eorzea as a consequence.

Peace benefits everyone. A senseless war, such as the one the warmonger heir tries to start for his own selfish interests, does the opposite.

Framing the collaborative effort between individuals from Tural and Eorzea to maintain peace for both continents' people as an act of colonization and a one-sided installment of *our* primary interests is something I can't agree with.

----

I can agree that the writing is very clumsy though (nuanced political writing isn't exactly FF14's strong suit in my opinion tbh...).

Because yeah, it's very rushed that we decide to go there in such a short period of time and the whole arc of "getting to know each other on a hunt" felt rather random and not really effective (though Erenville vouching for her really does help). I place the blame on the time constraint that came with their poor planning of having to cramp the set-up for Dawntrail into a 0.0.5 sub-patch. I wish they had set up Dawntrail during the entire post EW patch phase but I digress.

And I also agree that it might very well be the case that there is more to the story and that the warmongering sibling is a red herring. So it makes sense that we are cautious and observe first, but we can only observe for ourselves and form our own opinion if we actually go to Tural. Going to Tural in itself seems warranted to me. If there is the risk of war then it makes sense that we take it seriously, try to actually assess the risk and figure out if Wuk Lamat's claims are true to prevent harm in case they are.

So in short, unsatisfying, rushed writing that doesn't capture political nuances? Absolutely. Colonialization? No, I really disagree.