Are <5.0 main villain> fanboys also supportive of <6.1-6.5 main villain>? *SPOILERS*

[Cleretic]

She outright betrays her own race and personally betrays serveal people who trusted including the outright horror she inflicts on the 3 unsundered ascians by intentionally letting them witness and survive the complete extermination of the race and culture. Oh and then she creates a world of suffering a misery for some frankly vile logic of only through suffering can you know joy which honestly a vile ideology

So, to quantify, you believe Venat's crimes are:

1. Betrayal,
2. Planet-smashing,
3. Leaving survivors (I'm unclear how this is a crime but I'll run with the concept),
4. Causing suffering and misery.

I'm unclear about why this list of crimes isn't held completely equally by the Ascians. They orchestrate betrayals as part of their M.O., to cause Calamities that destroy planets, that leave at least some amount of the Source alive, and cause immense suffering and misery. In particular I would put Emet-Selch with the Garleans, Elidibus with... basically everyone he's ever manipulated, Fandaniel with the Allagans, and Igeyorhm with the Thirteenth as fitting these basically exactly.

The one thing that I can think causes a difference is that Venat did it to people she would recognize as 'like her', while the Ascians were manipulating something else? I hardly think otherizing is an acceptable or positive element, but if you do, then that still leaves Fandaniel's obliteration of Allag as Amon being equal. Emet-Selch, too, if your view is that he 'went native' at any point with us, Garlemald, or Allag.

I get that you disagree with her, and agree with the Ascians, but I don't think that even by your own logic she's actually worse.

[jameseoakes]

I get that you disagree with her, and agree with the Ascians, but I don't think that even by your own logic she's actually worse.

I'm getting really tired of you putting words in my mouth, I don't agree with ascians I just think Venat was worse. I'm also quite confused as to why it maters if Venat hadn't have have sundered the world none of the other crimes would happen and if those crimes and it really messed up how hard the game excuses Venats genocide as hard as the game does.

[Cleretic]

I'm getting really tired of you putting words in my mouth, I don't agree with ascians I just think Venat was worse. I'm also quite confused as to why it maters if Venat hadn't have have sundered the world none of the other crimes would happen and if those crimes and it really messed up how hard the game excuses Venats genocide as hard as the game does.

Your argument seems to be predicated on the notion that the Sundering 'created a world of suffering and misery'--thereby implying that the world before it wasn't. But even if you take the view that the Ancient world was without suffering (a view that doesn't hold thanks to short stories and Pandaemonium), she wasn't the one that broke that. Meteion did. By the time of the Sundering, three quarters of the population was either sacrificed or dead from the Final Days, the surviving population was divided, some amount of it was tempered, and who knows what other problems had sprung forth in the aftermath; paradise had already burned. And if you do think that the Ancient world had problems, then Venat's crime was... not immediately solving them?

Venat says she 'created a world of suffering' as a condemnation of herself, but it doesn't really hold. Her reasoning is actually something akin to me thinking I'd be a terrible mother because I'd be bringing a child into a world that I don't think will treat it well; I'd feel guilt for the pain that results, but that doesn't make me guilty.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Venat says she 'created a world of suffering' as a condemnation of herself, but it doesn't really hold. Her reasoning is actually something akin to me thinking I'd be a terrible mother because I'd be bringing a child into a world that I don't think will treat it well; I'd feel guilt for the pain that results, but that doesn't make me guilty.

It was more akin to killing your neighbor, stealing their organs and Frankensteining a better person with the parts. She didn't take the Ancients anywhere, she ripped them to pieces so that they no longer had the power to improve their material conditions because she believed comfort fostered weakness. And arguing both that she was right to kill them to stop them from improving their situation, but also, their situation sucked, so it's okay to kill them because they already had it bad is a contradiction.

All that you said plus the fact that her back up plan, if all her original plans went sideways, was literally to say screw all the Reflections and save only the people of the Source. If we hadn't gone digging into the why of what was causing the Final Days (because we rightfully thought leaving the Star and letting the Reflections die was stupid), we would have been leaving without ever learning of Meteion too. That means that it only would have been a temporary fix.

I never considered the evacuation plan as anything she was serious about given she knows the actual source of the problem and that there is nowhere for people to escape to given the entire universe is being destroyed. Like maybe she did it because she wanted to give people hope, or maybe she did it cause we told her she did and she wanted to maintain the timeline, but given no one even bothered to tell the Loporrits what size we were, I can't take the evacuation plan seriously. She just needed an excuse so we'd fight her in her assisted suicide, so she didn't have to look the people in the eye whose families she murdered and civilization she destroyed after they gave their lives to protect those things. Imagine being one of those people who sacrificed yourself to protect the star only to find out moments later Venat murdered your family and used their parts to make her familiars. I'm just saying, we know for a fact combat is possible in the aetherial sea. I get why she destroyed her soul instead of facing those people.

[Nayukhuut]

I never considered the evacuation plan as anything she was serious about given she knows the actual source of the problem and that there is nowhere for people to escape to given the entire universe is being destroyed. Like maybe she did it because she wanted to give people hope, or maybe she did it cause we told her she did and she wanted to maintain the timeline, but given no one even bothered to tell the Loporrits what size we were, I can't take the evacuation plan seriously. She just needed an excuse so we'd fight her in her assisted suicide, so she didn't have to look the people in the eye whose families she murdered and civilization she destroyed after they gave their lives to protect those things. Imagine being one of those people who sacrificed yourself to protect the star only to find out moments later Venat murdered your family and used their parts to make her familiars. I'm just saying, we know for a fact combat is possible in the aetherial sea. I get why she destroyed her soul instead of facing those people.

Fair enough. You make good points. It did feel a bit contrived, and the moon bunnies really are quite awful.

As for your point about the Aetherial Sea. Yup. If I was imprisoned for millennia after trying to save my home and saw Venat there after finding out what she had done, I would definitely want to have words.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Fair enough. You make good points. It did feel a bit contrived, and the moon bunnies really are quite awful.

As for your point about the Aetherial Sea. Yup. If I was imprisoned for millennia after trying to save my home and saw Venat there after finding out what she had done, I would definitely want to have words.

Now I'm just picturing a bunch of people in robes and masks having the Office Space printer scene reaction and I can't stop laughing.

https://youtu.be/N9wsjroVlu8?si=hn4lvRdUxvL8CXB4

[Nayukhuut]

Now I'm just picturing a bunch of people in robes and masks having the Office Space printer scene reaction and I can't stop laughing.

https://youtu.be/N9wsjroVlu8?si=hn4lvRdUxvL8CXB4

Haha, oh my goodness. If only. Heh, the Ancients as a species seemed to be pretty non violent, but if I suppose if an exception were to be made it would be for the one that literally destroyed your civilisation.

Edit: Though on my end, a proper debate to make her see just how much harm she ended up doing would be wonderful too.

[jameseoakes]

Your argument seems to be predicated on the notion that the Sundering 'created a world of suffering and misery'--thereby implying that the world before it wasn't. But even if you take the view that the Ancient world was without suffering (a view that doesn't hold thanks to short stories and Pandaemonium), she wasn't the one that broke that. Meteion did. By the time of the Sundering, three quarters of the population was either sacrificed or dead from the Final Days, the surviving population was divided, some amount of it was tempered, and who knows what other problems had sprung forth in the aftermath; paradise had already burned. And if you do think that the Ancient world had problems, then Venat's crime was... not immediately solving them?

Venat says she 'created a world of suffering' as a condemnation of herself, but it doesn't really hold. Her reasoning is actually something akin to me thinking I'd be a terrible mother because I'd be bringing a child into a world that I don't think will treat it well; I'd feel guilt for the pain that results, but that doesn't make me guilty.

My point point with the world of suffering was that Venat actively creates a scarcity world to actively force strife and suffering on the population. That's the the whole ponit of the sundering to make a species that has to endure short hard lives where misfortunate means death (remember the children in Ishgard freezing to death)

Also with respect to Venats actions I just don't know what you are trying to get at, I mean jumping to genocide as your solution to any problem is monstrous in the extreme, I don't get how you can hate characters like Emet the way you do and then be fine saying things like genocide are solutions to problems. This is my problem with Venat, it's not so much what she does, it's how the game bends over backward to say outright one of the most heinous things possible is acceptable if you other the victims enough

[MikkoAkure]

My point point with the world of suffering was that Venat actively creates a scarcity world to actively force strife and suffering on the population. That's the the whole ponit of the sundering to make a species that has to endure short hard lives where misfortunate means death (remember the children in Ishgard freezing to death)

According to the game and written directly into the new lore book, the purpose of the Sundering isn't suffering for its own sake, it's to remove creation magicks and to turn everyone into entelechies who can face against Endsinger who was going to kill the entire universe.

It would be one thing if Venat sundered the Ancient world at the height of its power, but at the time the whole thing went down the world had already ended. Most of the Ancients were already dead or turned to Zodiark soup and until Zodiark's second act, the planet was a barren lifeless husk. Zodiark couldn't bring back all the people who died during the Final Days either. Ancient society and culture would've had to have been rebuilt by the survivors anyway and a "numerous" movement of Ancients rejected the Convocation and Zodiark and decided that they couldn't move on like this. Venat didn't make this decision by herself.

[jameseoakes]

According to the game and written directly into the new lore book, the purpose of the Sundering isn't suffering for its own sake, it's to remove creation magicks and to turn everyone into entelechies who can face against Endsinger who was going to kill the entire universe.

It would be one thing if Venat sundered the Ancient world at the height of its power, but at the time the whole thing went down the world had already ended. Most of the Ancients were already dead or turned to Zodiark soup and until Zodiark's second act, the planet was a barren lifeless husk. Zodiark couldn't bring back all the people who died during the Final Days either. Ancient society and culture would've had to have been rebuilt by the survivors anyway and a "numerous" movement of Ancients rejected the Convocation and Zodiark and decided that they couldn't move on like this. Venat didn't make this decision by herself.

Sorry exterminating an entire race to replace them with something else is never justified, Eugenics is one of the greatest evil humanity has come with and this games story goes full apologist for it. Also I don't expect the anicents to go back to how they were before the trauma of the scale of the end of days makes that unlikely but Venat robbing them of that chance was an act of evil