Are <5.0 main villain> fanboys also supportive of <6.1-6.5 main villain>? *SPOILERS*

[Cleretic]

Why wouldn't you simply skip my posts rather than question my character and my motives? Yeah, if I agreed with murdering millions of people, I wouldn't want to be reminded that murdering millions of people so you can take everything they have is bad actually.

So what was your feeling on the third sacrifice to Zodiark?

[Lady_Silvermoon]

So what was your feeling on the third sacrifice to Zodiark?

I feel that people invent a sentient race never seen or heard of before or after the Sundering to justify Venat's actions because the truth is so horrific, headcannon has to makeup people for her to save to live with it. It's the same way people say that the Ancients deserve to die because they didn't respect life, they were willing to turn a butterfly into a robe to my level 90 leatherworker...

Every excuse we ever give to justify the eradication of these people, the sundered races do the same but worse. So in the case of the third sacrifice people tell themselves that the Ancients wanted to sacrifice sentient people because they can't grasp how noble these people were in comparison to us. They viewed themselves as the stewards of the star. Their disagreement was one over duty.

If my mom ended up in purgatory to save me and I can sacrifice some cows to get her back, call me Burger King. We invent a sentient race because there would be no disagreement among humans or the sundered races if we could sacrifice animals to get our loved ones back. It would be more like if someone kidnapped some of the Viera from Fanow and wanted the secrets of Ronka in exchange for their release. Some would be like, yeah, let's give it to them and get our people back while others would be like, no, it's our sacred duty to protect that information, and the people they have hostage have made that same vow. That's why Emet-Selch is abhorred at the suggestion he'd try to free the people in Zodiark because based on his value system they are doing their duty.

Both sides are perfectly reasonable stances to hold and the solution to resolving them isn't murder everyone. She allowed Zodiark to happen because she needed him as a shield for her new world and then used his existence as an excuse to get 12 people to give up their lives and more of their souls than they seem to know they will be losing so she can kill everyone they know and love.

But let's say I'm wrong and the lesser life isn't animals. Let's say that it's sentient beings, us even, let's say they wanted to sacrifice cat boys and bunny girls. Well, whatever life they were fighting over was sundered, so RIP. And the people who wanted to protect that life and agreed with her? Also sundered. So attempting to humanize the third sacrifice to dehumanize the Ancients doesn't work because whatever the third sacrifice was she destroyed it in the Sundering. You can't save anyone by ripping them to shreds and mutilating them to the point where they are no longer recognizable and reducing their lifespan by a factor of hundreds. That's not how saving works.

Her goal was not to save the third sacrifice, her goal was to make sure the future was shaped by her hands and hers alone.

[Cleretic]

Okay, so your view is that everyone who disagrees is a strawman, because you just invented a five-paragraph counterargument to nobody out of thin air in response to one question.

We're done. Have fun.

[MikkoAkure]

Both sides are perfectly reasonable stances to hold and the solution to resolving them isn't murder everyone. She allowed Zodiark to happen because she needed him as a shield for her new world and then used his existence as an excuse to get 12 people to give up their lives and more of their souls than they seem to know they will be losing so she can kill everyone they know and love.

But let's say I'm wrong and the lesser life isn't animals. Let's say that it's sentient beings, us even, let's say they wanted to sacrifice cat boys and bunny girls. Well, whatever life they were fighting over was sundered, so RIP. And the people who wanted to protect that life and agreed with her? Also sundered. So attempting to humanize the third sacrifice to dehumanize the Ancients doesn't work because whatever the third sacrifice was she destroyed it in the Sundering. You can't save anyone by ripping them to shreds and mutilating them to the point where they are no longer recognizable and reducing their lifespan by a factor of hundreds. That's not how saving works.

Her goal was not to save the third sacrifice, her goal was to make sure the future was shaped by her hands and hers alone.

This isn't all just Venat's vanity project like you keep trying to insinuate. The movement against Zodiark also seems to have started without her initially as well.

This undertaking, however was not without its opponents. There were those who contended that the volitile failure of creation magicks was a clear sign that mankind could not continue as it always had. Whether the calamity had eroded faith in the Convocation, or the grim glimpse of despair had simply woken people up to a new perspective, the fact remained that the anti-Zodiark sentiment was growing, and had found a champion in a woman by the name of Venat. Her followers were too numerous to ignore, but the Fourteen would not be dissuaded from their plans. A schism formed in the ancients' society, and conflict between the tow factions erupted in earnest.
[...]

The faction lef by Venat feared that the world would not survive a second coming of the Final Days. To prevent this calamity from ever happening again, they arrived at a disconcertingly familiar solution
[...]
Venat convinced her followers that Hydaelyn and Her sundering was the only path forward.

According to the 3rd Encyclopedia, her faction knew about the Sundering and the whole reason they did what they did is because they didn't believe that the world would survive a second coming of the Final Days. The faction was also more than just The Twelve and it was sizable among the surviving population of Ancients.

Another thing to remember is that the people who were killed during the Final Days would not come back and that didn't look like any small number. The original world pre-Final Days was never coming back and if the third act had gone on and those sacrificed did indeed get their bodies and individuality back, then the Ancient world would still be forever altered with a tempered convocation and a literal god of their own creation at the center of their society as the rest of the universe collapsed around them over millennia and Endsinger speeding up the heat death of the universe.

[jameseoakes]

According to the 3rd Encyclopedia, her faction knew about the Sundering and the whole reason they did what they did is because they didn't believe that the world would survive a second coming of the Final Days. The faction was also more than just The Twelve and it was sizable among the surviving population of Ancients.

Another thing to remember is that the people who were killed during the Final Days would not come back and that didn't look like any small number. The original world pre-Final Days was never coming back and if the third act had gone on and those sacrificed did indeed get their bodies and individuality back, then the Ancient world would still be forever altered with a tempered convocation and a literal god of their own creation at the center of their society as the rest of the universe collapsed around them over millennia and Endsinger speeding up the heat death of the universe.

That is still pretty terrible reasoning to purge your own race from existance and for the last part that not really any different to what Venat does making herself a literal god with 12 sub gods to enforce her will for millennia while Metion extermates all life in the universe. Honestly Venat likely just gave Metion more time and if people know the true cause of the end of days then it would be a lot easier to defend against so that reasoning seem frankly bad

[Lady_Silvermoon]

This isn't all just Venat's vanity project like you keep trying to insinuate. The movement against Zodiark also seems to have started without her initially as well.





According to the 3rd Encyclopedia, her faction knew about the Sundering and the whole reason they did what they did is because they didn't believe that the world would survive a second coming of the Final Days. The faction was also more than just The Twelve and it was sizable among the surviving population of Ancients.

Another thing to remember is that the people who were killed during the Final Days would not come back and that didn't look like any small number. The original world pre-Final Days was never coming back and if the third act had gone on and those sacrificed did indeed get their bodies and individuality back, then the Ancient world would still be forever altered with a tempered convocation and a literal god of their own creation at the center of their society as the rest of the universe collapsed around them over millennia and Endsinger speeding up the heat death of the universe.

Nothing you've linked goes against my understanding of what happened. It's made very clear her actions were not designed to protect the third sacrifice, but to destroy her people because she deemed them too powerful to live. That's what she did. That's what she said she was doing as she did it. That's what the information you've linked to me says she was doing. All while not telling these people ahead of time there is a depressed bird at the edge of universe attempting to destroy it. Asking the Ancients to nerf themselves, but not telling them why, then letting the Final Days happen and going, "see, see, we must be nerfed" and when not enough people agree to do it, murdering literally everyone is not the solution.

In Endwalker the entire world comes together and we all work together to stop the Endsinger. But with the Ancients, Venat takes it upon herself to enforce her will on the star and eradicate her species. Her actions are antithetical to even the morals of her own expansion. So when does everyone work together and when does someone wipe everything and everyone out and start over? We say that hope is eternal, but that's only true if you're not an Ancient, if you're an Ancient, there is no hope for you. We tell the Ea that even if life is finite, it's still worth living. But only if you're not an Ancient, if you're an Ancient being a Dead End (which is the final fate of every species) means it's okay to kill you and use your parts for scrap. The Garleans, the Omicron, the Grebuloff all deserve another chance no matter how much havoc they wreaked, but the Ancients? No second chance for them. What about the Ancients make them so unfit for salvation when that's not true for any other species we ever come across?

Okay, so your view is that everyone who disagrees is a strawman, because you just invented a five-paragraph counterargument to nobody out of thin air in response to one question.

We're done. Have fun.

You have not one made a single counterargument to anything I've said. All you've ever done is attack my character. But okay. Have a nice life.

[ZavosEsperian]

I feel that people invent a sentient race never seen or heard of before or after the Sundering to justify Venat's actions because the truth is so horrific, headcannon has to makeup people for her to save to live with it.

There is a lot of headcanon to go around on the forums unfortunately. Per EE3 page 11:

"Once the star was duly returned to vitality, they would offer a portion of its living energy to Zodiark in turn, thus allowing them to resurrect their sacrificed brethren whose souls slumbered within the deity."
-EE3 page 11, section 'The Schism'

Within EE3, there is no distinction as to what is being given up to Zodiark for the purpose of resurrection as the term "Living Energy" is rather vague and could mean a whole assortment of life forms. Anyone stating there is any specific lifeform, be it sentient or not, being sacrificed is directly contradicted by EE3. It should be noted the sacrifice back to Zodiark to attempt to resurrect the sacrificed Ancients in question would likely not work for any souls fully consumed in totality and it is unclear whether or not any Ancient whose soul was not fully consumed could be resurrected either.

As I have previously stated in a previous post, your viewpoint is one where people tend to become rather vitriolic, rude, or just plain old mean when it is encountered. I personally do not have qualms with anyone with differing opinions whereas others here clearly do and will not admit to their biases. If you are interested, I might be able to introduce you to individuals I know who also are of my mindset where people are able to discuss their various interpretations of the story without fear of ridicule or, at the very least, with the ability to agree to disagree . I personally am more of the opinion neither side was morally correct as both sides are various blends of grey to me.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

There is a lot of headcanon to go around on the forums unfortunately. Per EE3 page 11:



Within EE3, there is no distinction as to what is being given up to Zodiark for the purpose of resurrection as the term "Living Energy" is rather vague and could mean a whole assortment of life forms. Anyone stating there is any specific lifeform, be it sentient or not, being sacrificed is directly contradicted by EE3. It should be noted the sacrifice back to Zodiark to attempt to resurrect the sacrificed Ancients in question would likely not work for any souls fully consumed in totality and it is unclear whether or not any Ancient whose soul was not fully consumed could be resurrected either.

As I have previously stated in a previous post, your viewpoint is one where people tend to become rather vitriolic, rude, or just plain old mean when it is encountered. I personally do not have qualms with anyone with differing opinions whereas others here clearly do and will not admit to their biases. If you are interested, I might be able to introduce you to individuals I know who also are of my mindset where people are able to discuss their various interpretations of the story without fear of ridicule or, at the very least, with the ability to agree to disagree . I personally am more of the opinion neither side was morally correct as both sides are various blends of grey to me.

From what I can tell from the story it seems the souls inside Zodiark were protected and unharmed as Hythlodeus comes out of it perfectly normal and they were returned to the lifestream upon Zodiark's destruction. Given the sheer amount of aether Zodiark had to work with and the Ancient version of G'raha at the helm, I am not surprised no harm came to the souls of the sacrificed. Even if they couldn't be brought back as themselves, even releasing them back into the lifestream would have been a kinder fate than leaving your friends and loved ones serving as a human shield forever.

As for my reception, I'm not taking it personally. I don't blame other people for being emotional, like I said, I am haunted by the implications of Endwalker. If someone actually had an explanation that both fit with the text and didn't make our WoL the champion of the most terrifying villain I've ever come across, because not only does she murder, mutilate and torture us for her agenda, she makes us love her as she does it, I think I'd be the happiest here to see that perfectly reasonable alternate explanation that fits the text.

But what I usually get is one of the 30 contradictory reasons Endwalker gives that the Ancients HAD to die. And it makes me sick to hear them because they are the same reason we give for real world genocides too. "They are too powerful." "They are culturally inferior." "They are biologically inferior." "We can make better use of their resources than they could."

[Cleretic]

I personally am more of the opinion neither side was morally correct as both sides are various blends of grey to me.

I have the same feeling. As I mentioned before: It's an ugly situation, with no objective moral right answer even if you look at every single fact; all you can do is decide where you're comfortable, and try to reckon with what that means. I have my own answer, that I've come to terms with and could explain... but won't, because the only person that answer truly matters to is myself, and because doing so frequently devolves into personal attacks. At least the guy that used to call me slurs has been banned.

By the way, I asked you earlier for 'my behavior on the forums' that has you so heavily against me; can you elaborate on that? I do like being able to improve on my faults, but that does require knowing what they are in the first place. I made a guess earlier, but I still don't think that's the one you're thinking of.

[Theodric]

But what I usually get is one of the 30 contradictory reasons Endwalker gives that the Ancients HAD to die. And it makes me sick to hear them because they are the same reason we give for real world genocides too. "They are too powerful." "They are culturally inferior." "They are biologically inferior." "We can make better use of their resources than they could."

Yep. The blame lies squarely at the feet of the character who forced both the Ancients and the Sundered into a confrontation with one another - namely Venat.

To trot out one of my favourite snippets from a certain manga:



It's really as simple as that as far as I'm concerned. I'm frequently baffled by the persistent habit around these parts where certain posters insist that backing Venat is the only way forward and that the Ancients 'needed to' just be killed and replaced.

Shadowbringers was so largely successful on the basis that it proposed a solid premise - neither the Ancients or the Sundered deserved to be completely wiped out but unpleasant circumstances forced such a confrontation as inevitable for the sake of their respective goals and long term survival.

You can go back pretty far and see many supposed 'ZoDiArK fAnS' express this very opinion and point out the many different routes in which Venat could have taken in order for things to play out differently.

The character that deliberately sabotages, lies to and then destroys her own species is not a trustworthy source for what 'has to' happen - and once again, I want to point out how the Sundered only come to exist as a direct consequence of the Ancients being thoroughly wiped out.

We know full well from their own statements that the game's protagonists wouldn't accept Venat's judgement if she were to wipe out their loved ones, memories and civilisations through the Sundering so...there's no real obligation or need for any other species to submit to such judgement themselves.

Personally I think Venat would have aged better as a Yunalesca type figure. It's essentially what she ended up being written as in the end. At the very least, the Sundering being an accident rather than intentional act would have been less tone deaf but...what's done is done.