G-give it Back T---T; !!

[ty_taurus]

sure but you only ever used it in in conjunction with higanbana and midare. i would consider that 'maintenance'. there was nothing particularly exciting or interesting going on when you hit kaiten. the only thing that its removal that bugs me is that using your gap closer is a dps gain but that can be resolved by simply making all gapclosers dps neutral

A maintenance buff is something you’re meant to maintain 100% uptime with, like Standard Step, Darkside, Twin Snakes, etc. Kaiten is the literal opposite of that, a single-use enhancement of another action, something more akin to Zoe which is only used for Pneuma, Barrage which is only used for Refulgent Arrow, etc. Kaiten is actually the most varied example because it was gated by a resource instead of a cooldown, giving you a lot more flexibility on its use.

If you’re disatisfied with the options you had with Kaiten, why not suggest adding more options for what to spend it on rather than request its removal? Isn’t that Yoshi P’s model of approaching changes? (Unless you’re a healer, tank, summoner, or samurai)

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

A maintenance buff is something you’re meant to maintain 100% uptime with, like Standard Step, Darkside, Twin Snakes, etc. Kaiten is the literal opposite of that, a single-use enhancement of another action, something more akin to Zoe which is only used for Pneuma, Barrage which is only used for Refulgent Arrow, etc. Kaiten is actually the most varied example because it was gated by a resource instead of a cooldown, giving you a lot more flexibility on its use.

If you’re disatisfied with the options you had with Kaiten, why not suggest adding more options for what to spend it on rather than request its removal? Isn’t that Yoshi P’s model of approaching changes? (Unless you’re a healer, tank, summoner, or samurai)

Pretty much spot on. What I and a handful others said about Kaiten is that we don't miss Kaiten in the form that we had it. Dark Arts from DRK was similarly functioning and even as an absolute Dark Arts enjoyer back in Stormblood, it was really shallow how much it did beyond the extra special Abyssal Drain.

Now, Kaiten with more viable uses than just Iaijutsu is absolutely one of the best ways to handle it. Possibly if actions had bonus effects that differ when Kaiten is deployed.

[CelestiCer]

What are you talking about? Kaiten wasn't a maintenance buff; it enhanced your next weaponskill.

Agreed, it wasn't.

Calling Hissatsu: Kaiten a Maintenance Buff there for Boring? is essentially using the repeated argument of " It's just a button you press every-time " and I can apply this logic to every Button we press every-time regardless of Job. Hell that would make Hissatsu: Shinten our OGCD Maintenance Filler as it has become 1/5th of our gameplay with Kaiten removal and I find that truly boring compared to managing both. Mowing down mobs with just Hissatsu: Kyuten equally became more boring.

My entire rotation as of post 6.08 has become Maintenance and they want to talk about a Maintenance buff... after 7 simplifications hit to my Job and people who argue that if Kaiten should be reinstated that it should only return when it's changed with extra function? is admirable. And I would have faith in that idea... If they could give an example that Square has done so in the recent past where they removed/reworked something and it returned in a more complex/fun to execute/brain provoking manner, packaged in a fun Animation, specially for my Samurai Job ( spoiler alert: for me they haven't ) mhm

They could fix the Bloat like fusing/merging/overlapping

• Senei and Guren
• Shinten and Kyuten
• Ikishoten and Ogi-Namikiri
• Shoha and Shoha II
• Iaijutsu and Tsubame

But they haven't when they said Button Bloat was the issue, only to change that narrative to Action Bloat which would mean our APM/CPM and that has also not changed. Then it was about DPS variance? but because we Shinten so much now and we can Direct/Crithit every single one of them? that still gives us that Variance that Kaiten removal had nothing to do with.

TLDR: SAM is still Fun, but many of us asking " Hissatsu: Kaiten " back or desiring it back is in a manner of saying? to ask Square very politely to not BS us with excuses that do not warrant nor justify the crappy changes they make. We're passionate about the gameplay and XIV still going into 2024... ergo? Give back my Kaiten

[Shurrikhan]

But they haven't when they said Button Bloat was the issue, only to change that narrative to Action Bloat which would mean our APM/CPM and that has also not changed.

Not a defense of removing Kaiten, but...

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed", rather than its changing what ought be done before or after, and/or is necessarily constrained to a particular bundle that would, again, otherwise function identically even without it.

Which, Kaiten was... in itself. Its only claim to anything than bloat more was due to its gauge cost.

That, however, is not to say that bloat is never appreciable. People are free to like their woosh-woosh-wish animation even if it saw zero use outside of Iaijutsu and changed absolutely nothing about when and how Iaijutsu should be used.

Action bloat wasn't a sufficient reason to remove it, imo, but their reasoning does actually hold water. Remember, DRG's old Power Surge (90s CD meant to be used with Jump) was removed under the same rationale. Look at it from that angle, and it makes a lot more sense.

The problem is the narrowness of their view, as --again-- there was also the matter of how its costs interacted with other costs, and none of that impact was replaced nor reinvigorated in Kaiten's absence.

[ty_taurus]

Not a defense of removing Kaiten, but...

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed", rather than its changing what ought be done before or after, and/or is necessarily constrained to a particular bundle that would, again, otherwise function identically even without it.

Which, Kaiten was... in itself. Its only claim to anything than bloat more was due to its gauge cost.

That, however, is not to say that bloat is never appreciable. People are free to like their woosh-woosh-wish animation even if it saw zero use outside of Iaijutsu and changed absolutely nothing about when and how Iaijutsu should be used.

Action bloat wasn't a sufficient reason to remove it, imo, but their reasoning does actually hold water. Remember, DRG's old Power Surge (90s CD meant to be used with Jump) was removed under the same rationale. Look at it from that angle, and it makes a lot more sense.

The problem is the narrowness of their view, as --again-- there was also the matter of how its costs interacted with other costs, and none of that impact was replaced nor reinvigorated in Kaiten's absence.

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

[grinkdaboy]

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

because monk was a steaming pile of garbage up until the rework which made it halfway decent. even better was that before 5.4 more people played blue mage than it

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

So, my issue with kaiten post 6.0 was the frequency it had to be used in the opener and in burst windows. This part tends to be ignored, but with the addition of namikiri, you had to use kaiten 3 times in quick secession, while also using your other ogcds. This was a lot of button presses in those phases and it was much easier to flub vs the 5.x burst phases.

This is one of the reasons why I've consistently said namikiri was one of the worst things added to the job.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Reposting this because it got lost in a sudden bout of weird fighting over nothing and I think it adds some context to the "action bloat" thing.

So, my issue with kaiten post 6.0 was the frequency it had to be used in the opener and in burst windows. This part tends to be ignored, but with the addition of namikiri, you had to use kaiten 3 times in quick secession, while also using your other ogcds. This was a lot of button presses in those phases and it was much easier to flub vs the 5.x burst phases.

This is one of the reasons why I've consistently said namikiri was one of the worst things added to the job.

[CelestiCer]

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed"

Well that's the logic behind every damage button, it's just there to be pressed be it a Combo Button / Another Fell Cleave / even Ley Lines / Another Glare / Reassembles / Truenorth - No matter the movement / Weaving intricacy / Resource Management / Slidecasting / Succession Combo you have to deal with or is tied to said skills or its weight impact to your rotation? they are ultimately all just buttons there " just to be pressed ".

Without Kaiten? I at least pressed my OGCD's with a little variety. Now? as example of my last P12S, my combo button Hakaze is casted 44 times while Shinten is at Nr1 casted 56 times... yet no one will question that this is just a button that's there " just to be pressed " no? it's that much more boring and less satisfying to execute which is subjective... all to remove Kaiten to fix well practically nothing.

But if were gonna use the logic of " its just another button you press every-time " I hope we don't apply logic just to Kaiten