G-give it Back T---T; !!

[CelestiCer]

What are you talking about? Kaiten wasn't a maintenance buff; it enhanced your next weaponskill.

Agreed, it wasn't.

Calling Hissatsu: Kaiten a Maintenance Buff there for Boring? is essentially using the repeated argument of " It's just a button you press every-time " and I can apply this logic to every Button we press every-time regardless of Job. Hell that would make Hissatsu: Shinten our OGCD Maintenance Filler as it has become 1/5th of our gameplay with Kaiten removal and I find that truly boring compared to managing both. Mowing down mobs with just Hissatsu: Kyuten equally became more boring.

My entire rotation as of post 6.08 has become Maintenance and they want to talk about a Maintenance buff... after 7 simplifications hit to my Job and people who argue that if Kaiten should be reinstated that it should only return when it's changed with extra function? is admirable. And I would have faith in that idea... If they could give an example that Square has done so in the recent past where they removed/reworked something and it returned in a more complex/fun to execute/brain provoking manner, packaged in a fun Animation, specially for my Samurai Job ( spoiler alert: for me they haven't ) mhm

They could fix the Bloat like fusing/merging/overlapping

• Senei and Guren
• Shinten and Kyuten
• Ikishoten and Ogi-Namikiri
• Shoha and Shoha II
• Iaijutsu and Tsubame

But they haven't when they said Button Bloat was the issue, only to change that narrative to Action Bloat which would mean our APM/CPM and that has also not changed. Then it was about DPS variance? but because we Shinten so much now and we can Direct/Crithit every single one of them? that still gives us that Variance that Kaiten removal had nothing to do with.

TLDR: SAM is still Fun, but many of us asking " Hissatsu: Kaiten " back or desiring it back is in a manner of saying? to ask Square very politely to not BS us with excuses that do not warrant nor justify the crappy changes they make. We're passionate about the gameplay and XIV still going into 2024... ergo? Give back my Kaiten

[Shurrikhan]

But they haven't when they said Button Bloat was the issue, only to change that narrative to Action Bloat which would mean our APM/CPM and that has also not changed.

Not a defense of removing Kaiten, but...

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed", rather than its changing what ought be done before or after, and/or is necessarily constrained to a particular bundle that would, again, otherwise function identically even without it.

Which, Kaiten was... in itself. Its only claim to anything than bloat more was due to its gauge cost.

That, however, is not to say that bloat is never appreciable. People are free to like their woosh-woosh-wish animation even if it saw zero use outside of Iaijutsu and changed absolutely nothing about when and how Iaijutsu should be used.

Action bloat wasn't a sufficient reason to remove it, imo, but their reasoning does actually hold water. Remember, DRG's old Power Surge (90s CD meant to be used with Jump) was removed under the same rationale. Look at it from that angle, and it makes a lot more sense.

The problem is the narrowness of their view, as --again-- there was also the matter of how its costs interacted with other costs, and none of that impact was replaced nor reinvigorated in Kaiten's absence.

[ty_taurus]

Not a defense of removing Kaiten, but...

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed", rather than its changing what ought be done before or after, and/or is necessarily constrained to a particular bundle that would, again, otherwise function identically even without it.

Which, Kaiten was... in itself. Its only claim to anything than bloat more was due to its gauge cost.

That, however, is not to say that bloat is never appreciable. People are free to like their woosh-woosh-wish animation even if it saw zero use outside of Iaijutsu and changed absolutely nothing about when and how Iaijutsu should be used.

Action bloat wasn't a sufficient reason to remove it, imo, but their reasoning does actually hold water. Remember, DRG's old Power Surge (90s CD meant to be used with Jump) was removed under the same rationale. Look at it from that angle, and it makes a lot more sense.

The problem is the narrowness of their view, as --again-- there was also the matter of how its costs interacted with other costs, and none of that impact was replaced nor reinvigorated in Kaiten's absence.

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly, I'm not sure Toxicon is crap, so long as one thinks there should be damage-refunding (only) for certain heals. It does more or less what you'd expect: softens the cost of shielding, while thereby further punishing any at-cost sustain that is not a shield.

I just think the (lack of) shield-stacking functionality is crap, and the lack of any other way to generate Addersting seems a bit of a waste (even if it were as simple as generating a stack every 20s passively, akin to Addersgall).

Had I my druthers, sure, I'd tear the mechanic out root and stem and replace it and its surroundings entirely, but...

[grinkdaboy]

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

because monk was a steaming pile of garbage up until the rework which made it halfway decent. even better was that before 5.4 more people played blue mage than it

[ty_taurus]

Honestly, I'm not sure Toxicon is crap, so long as one thinks there should be damage-refunding (only) for certain heals. It does more or less what you'd expect: softens the cost of shielding, while thereby further punishing any at-cost sustain that is not a shield.

I just think the (lack of) shield-stacking functionality is crap, and the lack of any other way to generate Addersting seems a bit of a waste (even if it were as simple as generating a stack every 20s passively, akin to Addersgall).

Had I my druthers, sure, I'd tear the mechanic out root and stem and replace it and its surroundings entirely, but...

But it doesn't soften the cost of shielding. I'll hide this since it's off topic...

Dosis + Dosis + Dosis = 990 Potency

Dosis + Barrier + Toxikon = 660 Potency

Dosis + Nothing + Dosis = 660 Potency

The only value Toxikon is trying to offer you is mobility, but let's analyze that for a moment. How much damage does Toxikon normally earn you that you would otherwise lose in any given example of content? What percentage of your total DPS is that? What percentage of the boss' HP is that? What does Toxikon actually accomplish for you?

I took a look at some examples of Sage players in Savage to gauge how much Toxikon offered them. Here's the results:
Sage #1: 1.56% - 3 casts
Sage #2: 1.32% - 3 casts
Sage #3: 1.05% - 3 casts
Sage #4: 1.56% - 4 casts
Sage #5: 1.23% - 3 casts

All but one of these Sages only cast Toxikon 3 times, the amount that you are given for free. And you have to ask the question, were those Toxikons necessary? Could each of those Sages have cast something else instead, such as using a Phlegma charge that was otherwise not important for the buff window, refreshing their DOT, or simply slidecasting Dosis? Even if those Toxikon casts were the only way of dealing damage, would each cast otherwise have resulted in a full loss of 2.5 seconds? So I ask again, what value does Toxikon actually have? What tangible value does it provide? Because I see nothing. In fact, I would argue that Addersting and Toxikon are an even worse system than Stormblood lilies, or at least just as bad. Any semblence of it feeling less garbage is probably due to it seeming less jank than the lilies did since it's not involved with something very easy to overlook in the form of cooldown reduction.

[CelestiCer]

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed"

Well that's the logic behind every damage button, it's just there to be pressed be it a Combo Button / Another Fell Cleave / even Ley Lines / Another Glare / Reassembles / Truenorth - No matter the movement / Weaving intricacy / Resource Management / Slidecasting / Succession Combo you have to deal with or is tied to said skills or its weight impact to your rotation? they are ultimately all just buttons there " just to be pressed ".

Without Kaiten? I at least pressed my OGCD's with a little variety. Now? as example of my last P12S, my combo button Hakaze is casted 44 times while Shinten is at Nr1 casted 56 times... yet no one will question that this is just a button that's there " just to be pressed " no? it's that much more boring and less satisfying to execute which is subjective... all to remove Kaiten to fix well practically nothing.

But if were gonna use the logic of " its just another button you press every-time " I hope we don't apply logic just to Kaiten

[Shurrikhan]

Tangential...

But it doesn't soften the cost of shielding.

<snip>

Wait... that means you've greater assured offensive uptime despite movement and some additional cleave.... How is that not likely to help produce more damage in practice (i.e., in real content)? Its featural/contextual, but that's generally the more interesting means of aid (including the largest part of what Lilies+Misery offer over Glare spam and oGCD heals).

[ty_taurus]

Tangential...

I'll move this conversation over to the 'go play ultimate' thread to avoid taking control of this one.

[Jettinson]

Button bloat.. high apm etc... brothers and sisters.... I miss my Samurai dopamine button!! I need the twirl to show that my next move is gonna hit harder, I need to appreciate how Samurai isn't a diet/knockoff stinger spammer with constant usage of Shinten, it is more tiresome seeing my character using that... you are not Dante!!!

What next? Samurai gets demonic powers in Dawntrail?