DT Relic Proposal

[Ardeth]

Yeah it's pretty nice this time around for not forcing you to do either extremely tedious content (ARR/HW) or do Exploratory Zones you don't want to be in (SB/SHB).
I've posted about it on here before but having it earned through the grinding you're already doing in other content is great and freeing, I don't feel like I'm shoehorned into content I don't want to be in. I can go grind whatever content I want and still make progress without having some arbitrary "do 100 fates" or "clear each normal raid series 60 times" kind of tasks that just drag things out for no reason. And I don't have to deal with zones like Bozja and Eureka that die out very quickly.

It's feels good honestly given how bad a lot of relics were in the past.

I never do them when they are tied to an exploratory zone. The bonus to that is they were all ugly anyway so I didn't care.

[RitsukoSonoda]

I never do them when they are tied to an exploratory zone. The bonus to that is they were all ugly anyway so I didn't care.

The exploratory zones offered numerous rewards beyond the relics themselves along with their associated quests providing lore and worldbuilding information for players. The relics themselves were always optional content, not obligatory content. You were not required to get them. If you did not wish to do the exploratory zone then you could skip it. There were other options for perfectly viable weapons via other in game content to progress with. There was no need to reduce relic weapons to being charity weapons.

[VerdeLuck]

And there's the rub, one side considers anything below their standards to be "charity weapons" and "unearned". There's no discussion that can really happen when one side comes to the discussion with loaded statements like that.
You can't compromise with it, it's their way or they're going to say that the relics "mean nothing".

Endwalker brought a nice idea to the table, that maybe taking the relics and locking them behind content people otherwise wouldn't like is a bad idea. You might need to tweak the numbers, but having an open path to set your own goals to get the relic is better for more players than forcing players to engage with something like Bozja they might not like just to progress their relic. Taking something people want and putting it behind content they don't like is not going to get them to like the content any more than before. It just makes players more resentful and frustrated that they have to grind content they hate to get the reward they want.

[OgruMogru]

Taking something people want and putting it behind content they don't like is not going to get them to like the content any more than before. It just makes players more resentful and frustrated that they have to grind content they hate to get the reward they want.

Then maybe they should go take a break and play a game with content they actually enjoy instead of making it the problem of people that *do* want to engage with the content. I'm resentful and frustrated that huge swathes of the game are being removed and deprioritized for a portion of the playerbase that just seem hellbent on avoiding playing -at all-

[VerdeLuck]

Then maybe they should go take a break and play a game with content they actually enjoy instead of making it the problem of people that *do* want to engage with the content. I'm resentful and frustrated that huge swathes of the game are being removed and deprioritized for a portion of the playerbase that just seem hellbent on avoiding playing -at all-

I have no idea what you're talking about with "removing huge swathes of the game", it seems like you're bringing a lot of extra baggage into this discussion or attributing something to me that I never said.

Having a generic grind like in Endwalker is good, it's preferrable since you're not boxed into doing something specifically. Everyone gets to play the content they want and it counts towards their relic as long as it's level 90 content. You can argue that the numbers need to be higher but the concept of "play what you have fun with and it counts towards your expansion relic" is a pretty good concept when compared with what we had before, which to be honest was either farming a specific exploratory zone or farming one specific duty over and over. It's not like running Delibrum is much more engaging than running other types of duties, and at the end of the day, more choice is better, especially if the content you liked wasn't in the relic approved list of duties that could be farmed.

[OgruMogru]

I have no idea what you're talking about with "removing huge swathes of the game", it seems like you're bringing a lot of extra baggage into this discussion or attributing something to me that I never said.

Having a generic grind like in Endwalker is good, it's preferrable since you're not boxed into doing something specifically. Everyone gets to play the content they want and it counts towards their relic as long as it's level 90 content. You can argue that the numbers need to be higher but the concept of "play what you have fun with and it counts towards your expansion relic" is a pretty good concept when compared with what we had before, which to be honest was either farming a specific exploratory zone or farming one specific duty over and over. It's not like running Delibrum is much more engaging than running other types of duties, and at the end of the day, more choice is better, especially if the content you liked wasn't in the relic approved list of duties that could be farmed.

The relic grind and the exploration zones and the context for the grind itself that we had with previous expansions constitutes a substantial chunk of content that is missing from EW. You made a post earlier saying you didn't want to do ARR/HW content grind OR the exploratory content from both SB and ShB. That's 4/5 relic iterations and associated content that you won't do/don't enjoy. what about all the people that *did* enjoy that process? That now just have to make do with yet more tomes, not even an extra currency added to at least make it feel like there's some context to what you're grinding for?

For me personally it's extra salt in the wound because I think Manderville quests are moronic and I hate them. In the past that hasn't been a problem because *gasp* i just didn't partake in content I didn't enjoy but now that content has skidmarked out into the game at large and it stinks. So I have ended up with less engaging content with an underwhelming grind and a whole relic storyline wasted. The grind, context, the zones and story. Gone. If someone needed to take the previous relic steps slowly they could have and their experience would have been no different. They just could have taken it slowly with breaks and not got overwhelmed or bored. No such recompense for the people that actually enjoyed that content though.

[VerdeLuck]

The relic grind and the exploration zones and the context for the grind itself that we had with previous expansions constitutes a substantial chunk of content that is missing from EW. You made a post earlier saying you didn't want to do ARR/HW content grind OR the exploratory content from both SB and ShB. That's 4/5 relic iterations and associated content that you won't do/don't enjoy. what about all the people that *did* enjoy that process? That now just have to make do with yet more tomes, not even an extra currency added to at least make it feel like there's some context to what you're grinding for?

For me personally it's extra salt in the wound because I think Manderville quests are moronic and I hate them. In the past that hasn't been a problem because *gasp* i just didn't partake in content I didn't enjoy but now that content has skidmarked out into the game at large and it stinks. So I have ended up with less engaging content with an underwhelming grind and a whole relic storyline wasted. The grind, context, the zones and story. Gone. If someone needed to take the previous relic steps slowly they could have and their experience would have been no different. They just could have taken it slowly with breaks and not got overwhelmed or bored. No such recompense for the people that actually enjoyed that content though.

I don't get itt then, if you enjoyed running exploration zones to get a relic then.... just do that? In Dawntrail if they continue the pattern it will count towards the relic since it's going to be level 100 content and would give progress.
I'm advocating for taking the current method in endwalker and improving it so that people can pick their desired path to the relic and not feel like they have to do content they hate. I don't see how that can be a contentious topic unless your fun comes from the fact players are literally forced to do a specific bit of content with no alternatives to earn the relic.
And if that's the case then... yeah I don't think you should really get what you want sorry. I like the option to choose and I do not want to get shoved back into some exploration zone or abysmal farm like books or atma farm and not have an alternative to break it up.

And given how popular the relics have been this expansion I don't think SE is going to go in the opposite direction, there will be a freedom of choice in which direction you go in the next relics. How much remains to be seen.

[ForteNightshade]

And there's the rub, one side considers anything below their standards to be "charity weapons" and "unearned". There's no discussion that can really happen when one side comes to the discussion with loaded statements like that.
You can't compromise with it, it's their way or they're going to say that the relics "mean nothing".

Endwalker brought a nice idea to the table, that maybe taking the relics and locking them behind content people otherwise wouldn't like is a bad idea. You might need to tweak the numbers, but having an open path to set your own goals to get the relic is better for more players than forcing players to engage with something like Bozja they might not like just to progress their relic. Taking something people want and putting it behind content they don't like is not going to get them to like the content any more than before. It just makes players more resentful and frustrated that they have to grind content they hate to get the reward they want.

Except Exploratory Zones have been the most engaged with content they've ever released. They didn't pause it this expansion due to it being unpopular but rather because they wanted to try other ideas much in the same way they paused Deep Dungeon in Shadowbringers. Were their people such as yourself who disliked it? Sure. The forums certainly wasn't quiet with complaints. Now you're seeing everyone who liked Eureak and Bozja upset because their content suddenly got removed and the replacement was "do the chores you were already doing."

And people call it a "charity weapon" because it essentially is. There's neither an effort nor journey in obtaining the relics any more. They aren't special weapons you build towards throughout the expansion but a glow stick you get doing the same chores you were already going to do anyway. What especially upsets a lot of people is we already had weapons you could passive earn. Actual Tome weapons were that casual grind upgrade everyone could partake. Then you have crafted weapons and Primal ones if you're feeling like getting your feet wet in harder content. Instead, we lost content in Exploratory Zones so the relics can become an even easier tome weapon while those of us who like grinding now have nothing to do as earning said relic is laughably easy.

[VerdeLuck]

Except Exploratory Zones have been the most engaged with content they've ever released. They didn't pause it this expansion due to it being unpopular but rather because they wanted to try other ideas much in the same way they paused Deep Dungeon in Shadowbringers. Were their people such as yourself who disliked it? Sure. The forums certainly wasn't quiet with complaints. Now you're seeing everyone who liked Eureak and Bozja upset because their content suddenly got removed and the replacement was "do the chores you were already doing."

And people call it a "charity weapon" because it essentially is. There's neither an effort nor journey in obtaining the relics any more. They aren't special weapons you build towards throughout the expansion but a glow stick you get doing the same chores you were already going to do anyway. What especially upsets a lot of people is we already had weapons you could passive earn. Actual Tome weapons were that casual grind upgrade everyone could partake. Then you have crafted weapons and Primal ones if you're feeling like getting your feet wet in harder content. Instead, we lost content in Exploratory Zones so the relics can become an even easier tome weapon while those of us who like grinding now have nothing to do as earning said relic is laughably easy.

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

[OgruMogru]

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

If you're seeing lots of people agreeing that EW relic was insufficient then perhaps it is not as unpopular an opinion as you *want* it to be. Why are you so pressed over them being called charity weapons? Plenty of people in this thread have pointed out that it's not just the grind being removed that is the issue, it's also the setting, the context, the extra goodies, the story, the lore. This is all stuff people look forward to and it's all been removed so anything that we get in it's place will always feel inadequate. 1500 tomes every 4 months is a joke. The charity weapon is the punchline.