FFXIV's Systems Ain't That Deep, but They Could Have Been.

[Kaurhz]

Giving up on something because you aren't immediately good at it means you will never get better.
If they implement a system and its bad, then iterate on it until it is good.
If they just delete it instead of trying to improve it, then they must not have much of a vision for their game and are instead just throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Imagine if instead of just outright deleting crossclass functionality, they built on it through all the years the games been out and what that system could have developed into?
FF14 would have had a system in it that set it apart from other MMOs.

Don't get me wrong, in principle it is good, but the cross-class system itself at the time of implementation was heavily criticized and disliked which indicated they didn't like it, and for a good reason, it wasn't one of those systems they just aimlessly went headfirst in and removed for no reason, there was genuine feedback against that system. Edit: I would say given their development or lack thereof in Heavensward shows how they themselves felt about it, even before it was replaced by role abilities.

Like, it's well and good saying in theory it gives people an opportunity to try new classes and pads out the content, etc., - But you need to consider that more people than not were not treating it as that means - It was more like -- "Wait, I need B4B on my MNK? You're telling me I need to now level LNC???" - With a sigh ensuing.

Cross-class was only really reworked into the role-system which we have now, which as I have said isn't a bad system, but really could have a little more to it. - Role actions were their idea of 'improving' cross-class, which between the two I would take role abilities.

This is also all well and good saying, but IMO for cross-class to be what it could've been, would have inevitably needed to be reworked in the first place, and honestly if I had to say so there's really external systems that already fight-back against what cross-class would even have a chance of being, e.g., the game from head to toe is very rigid, and always has been -- Probably always will be too, which doesn't entirely favor a system like cross-class, especially when you might want to look at it in the perspective of "Oh, it could've been an enabler of sub-jobs, or something that 'blurs that line between Tank/Healer/DPS".

A lot of the earlier systems, especially those present in ARR were absolutely just about throwing out ideas and systems and seeing what sticks - That's just how bad the initial product was in the first place. Many of them inherited from the ARR days, and some others also tried to derive from FFXI. Your last point would reign true for absolutely every system in the game - But again, the problem in the case of cross-class specifically is that people disliked it from the premise - All you'd be doing here is substituting deletion of a system with trying to ram it down peoples' throats (Neither are good). They already had a good swing and a miss on that with Diadem and the Specialist system for crafters. - What do you do in the event you keep developing it, and keep going, and going to just find out that people still don't like it? Keep wasting resources on it?

Looking at some of your other posts, I don't exactly disagree either in principle, but cross-class just ain't one of those systems.

[kayll]

Don't get me wrong, in principle it is good, but the cross-class system itself at the time of implementation was heavily criticized and disliked which indicated they didn't like it, and for a good reason, it wasn't one of those systems they just aimlessly went headfirst in and removed for no reason, there was genuine feedback against that system. Edit: I would say given their development or lack thereof in Heavensward shows how they themselves felt about it, even before it was replaced by role abilities.

I'm not entirely hung up on cross-class actions being deleted its just an example, I wouldn't really care if it was replaced with something else meaningful... but it wasn't, it was more a hypothetical that if they kept the system and worked on it, they could have developed something meaningful over time.
Though when I played in ARR I saw no issue with it personally, you wanted your character to be stronger? You played more of the game, that just makes sense to me in an MMO.

Character progression was putting stat points into your main stat. Yay. Could it be expanded to put them into secondary stats? Sure, now they all go into crit. If you have a different idea, please share.

Gear progression, there is going to be a BiS, no matter if it is for every fight, or specific fights, or hypothetical different builds. What do you actually want to see out of gear progression?

What systems are you actually saying they should add? Taking into account how players actually interact with said systems and not necessarily how you want them to interact.

Why would I care about manual stat allocation in this game when stats are about as worthless can be?
You pretty much highlight some of the things wrong with the game yourself as some sort of "gotcha" towards me.
Substats are unbalanced and don't matter, there is no meaningful choice to be made there.
BiS is used to farm the things you got BiS from,Whats the point? it will get replaced by crafted gear next patch.

What systems are you actually saying they should add? Taking into account how players actually interact with said systems and not necessarily how you want them to interact.

I'm sure if I was getting 15$ a month per player I surely could come up with something in at least 10years.

[DPZ2]

I'm sure if I was getting 15$ a month per player I surely could come up with something in at least 10years.

Except, well, they have "come up with something". The fact that you, personally, do not like what they decided on may be the issue - for you, personally.

For me, personally, customization was that thing you go to icy-veins to let them tell you what the current Balance discord figured out within the current parameters of the game.

What I really despised about WoW was that special gear with neat stats and procs became useless in the next expansion. And don't get me started about Legendary Weapons and the grind to feed them.

[kayll]

Except, well, they have "come up with something". The fact that you, personally, do not like what they decided on may be the issue - for you, personally.

I'm curious of the "something" they came up with is, can you enlighten me?
Willing to give credit where credit is due, but the games systems are still a very same to the game release.. and don't get me wrong I don't hate the game, I just wish it was better in some places.

What I really despised about WoW was that special gear with neat stats and procs became useless in the next expansion. And don't get me started about Legendary Weapons and the grind to feed them.

How is that worse compared to the current FF system, no neat stats, no neat procs, yet your gear becomes useless all the same?
Also I don't get the complaints about having to play the game in an RPG to make your character stronger, that is kinda the most RPG thing about an RPG imo.

[Shurrikhan]

For me, personally, customization was that thing you go to icy-veins to let them tell you what the current Balance discord figured out within the current parameters of the game.

While the case for many (if less so for WoW than, say, less contextual choices like gearing), it's hard to blame that entirely on the system itself. Most going to Icy-veins, especially if/when doing less standard content (shorter fights or high-key Fortified with necessary focus damage, most forms of PvP, etc.) were leaving performance and/or fun (and usually both) on the table.

Which is... fine(?) but certainly makes complaints about such as such meta build being the only real option pretty laughable (given that it'd literally be inferior for what they were doing, and the difference wasn't that great even in the content the meta builds were intended for).

What I really despised about WoW was that special gear with neat stats and procs became useless in the next expansion.

I get that, but honestly have never had a problem with each expansion putting a novel twist on borrowed powers. Though you might lose a particular favorite temporary addition, at least there was always something new, usually of comparable quality.

If anything, I simply disliked when the layers of piecemeal customization became so disparate and/or unintuitive as to hurt accessibility more than they actually helped any sense of progression or customization.

[kayll]

While the case for many (if less so for WoW than, say, less contextual choices like gearing), it's hard to blame that entirely on the system itself. Most going to Icy-veins, especially if/when doing less standard content (shorter fights or high-key Fortified with necessary focus damage, most forms of PvP, etc.) were leaving damage on the table.

Which is fine but makes complaints about such as such meta build being the only real option pretty laughable (given that it'd literally be inferior for what they were doing, and the difference wasn't that great even in the content the meta builds were intended for).


I get that, but honestly have never had a problem with each expansion putting a novel twist on borrowed powers. Though you might lose a particular favorite temporary addition, at least there was always something new, usually of comparable quality.

If anything, I simply disliked when the layers of piecemeal customization became so disparate and/or unintuitive as to hurt accessibility more than they actually helped any sense of progression or customization.

People in WoW complain about its borrowed power systems generally are looking at the short term, but its a good way of test running things that become baked into the classes if they are enjoyable to use, I can go look at my spec in WoW and see instances of "borrowed power" from that past 3 expansions that I still have because they were just put into the talent trees.

Imagine instead of Lost Actions in Bozja being generic abilities and instead more class based on experimental skills that if players liked could be added to the classes themselves, literally just go wild with the ideas for abilities and see what is enjoyable.
Maybe they'll do something more unique like that in the new exploration zone instead of more generic all-class ones.

[Shurrikhan]

People in WoW complain about its borrowed power systems generally are looking at the short term, but its a good way of test running things that become baked into the classes if they are enjoyable to use, I can go look at my spec in WoW and see instances of "borrowed power" from that past 3 expansions that I still have because they were just put into the talent trees.

Imagine instead of Lost Actions in Bozja being generic abilities and instead more class based on experimental skills that if players liked could be added to the classes themselves, literally just go wild with the ideas for abilities and see what is enjoyable.
Maybe they'll do something more unique like that in the new exploration zone instead of more generic all-class ones.

That is one of the great things about peripherial customization systems -- they're great test sites.

...The only obvious downside is if/when the game decides never to mainstream what they've found players almost all really like... just to ensure there's something attractive exclusive to that customization system (roughly equivalent to tossing out the baby to keep the bathwater clean).

[Cynric]

Except, well, they have "come up with something". The fact that you, personally, do not like what they decided on may be the issue - for you, personally.

For me, personally, customization was that thing you go to icy-veins to let them tell you what the current Balance discord figured out within the current parameters of the game.

What I really despised about WoW was that special gear with neat stats and procs became useless in the next expansion. And don't get me started about Legendary Weapons and the grind to feed them.

I personally hope we never get anything like those borrowed power systems from WoW. That was the main thing I disliked in WoW and made me not get too attached to anything for fear they'd just take it away. Some stuff eventually got rolled into the actions but generally it's a terrible system imo.