7.0 Tank Wishlist

[Shurrikhan]

I just find the whole idea that if you're not maximising your damage at all times that it's somehow suddenly a bad thing a bit odd... Like I said Third eye rewards samurais perfectly fine currently, I don't see many complain about third eye on samurai.

The point is to maximize party DPS, not necessarily your own DPS. The problem is simply when broader tuning issues are so out of whack that even forgoing your ~4000 healer potency (~5000 in tank potency) per minute in shielding per TBN oGCD... still might not make enough of a difference to actually force out a GCD heal on you or someone else later (due to using on you a bankable oGCD more than they scheduled out), meaning that the defensive may produce nothing.

If the TBNs were to each, say, produce at least 1 extra Dosis cast made possible, each of which does 429 tank potency in damage atop 221 tank potency in healing (since healers' output is all multiplied by 1.3x relative to tanks due to their Maim and Mend traits and tanks' lack of anything similar), in addition to saving healer MP, TBN would be worth casting any time it could be maxed out even if it didn't grant Edge/Flood on break at all.


As for why people don't worry as much (or rather, since TE was nerfed from its media tour pre-release state to its state since) about SAM needing raid damage every 15s in order to deal its max DPS...SAM has considerably more flexible weave space and the Third Eye's mitigation is frankly pitiful so it wouldn't need to forgo taking advantage of a tickle per 15s to mitigate something near-fatal that'd come up slightly outside of that rhythm. It's just not big enough to make a difference given that SAM already has more HP than certain raidmates who don't have any personal defensives, period (like Rangers, DRG, or RDM).

As such, Third Eye has no conflict between defensive or offensive use that would cause one aspect to be overriden by the other... because it's already purely an offensive tool. It's already that thoughtless. It has no decision-making or impact outside of its up to 40 gauge (worth 452 effective potency) per minute, only some minutia in learning how early you can get away with pre-popping TE in order to grab another 10 gauge as little as 12s later (though still for that max of 40 gauge per minute).


All that being said, Third Eye is arguably an example of how a defensive ought not to be designed (by making it no longer a defensive or leaving it so influenced by wider imbalances that its defensive value is redundant/irrelevant). It doesn't excuse that design; it shows it'd be wasteful even on a Melee DPS. Putting that on tank is not a great idea.

[Rithy255]

All that being said, Third Eye is arguably an example of how a defensive ought not to be designed (by making it no longer a defensive or leaving it so influenced by wider imbalances that its defensive value is redundant/irrelevant). It doesn't excuse that design; it shows it'd be wasteful even on a Melee DPS. Putting that on tank is not a great idea.

Timed tank counter attack role action button would also be kinda cool if it was a purely offensive ability. I like the idea of having a extra layer to your damage. I like third eye and damage gains for timed actions... I just think that's a matter of preference.

I'm not going argue on what I'd prefer anyway a lot of what I'd like in game wouldn't be popular with a good amount of people. I think I much rather TBN just be more rewarding then something so punishing, maybe my idea wouldn't work well for TBN in particular, just really don't like how you have to break it current with no real benefit, but I think removing that aspect would also sort of annoy some people, why I thought maybe it should just reward good use but not outright punish you for using it poorly.

[RoboYumi]

Disclaimer, I dont really play any tanks besides Gunbreaker.

However, I'll give a few thoughts that are probably very bad.
Paladin: They already fixed my biggest gripe, that of Divine Veil not shielding the paladin. All that remains is bringing back Shield Swipe as a Vengeance-esque tool; Deals an attack of 160 potency upon blocking any attack.

Gunbreaker: Doesnt need much of anything, maybe a shield to grant the party.

Dark Knight: Vampirism. And split Abyssal Drain and Carve/Spit's CD again so I can big succ

[Shurrikhan]

be more rewarding then something so punishing

Again, a glass half-empty/half-full is still a glass using 50% its capacity, whatever you call that state.

The current system is just a means of letting TBN have an extra 0.6 charges relative to the likes of Heart of Stone/Corundum and IR/Bloodwhetting (technically, up to almost 0.85s, when you consider how far TBN can be pre-popped before a tankbuster), and a way to have a flat sustain tool (just gives X potency of barrier, the max damage nullification of which scales only with your own stats, not incoming damage) scale somewhat with more intensive situations, just as percentile sustain tools would (such as %DR).

TBN's system is a way of providing a bit more skill expression in a thematic way and better nearing parity (e.g., against skills with %DR) without having to be overly homogenous (such as by having %DR itself). It's... pretty damn smart, honestly.


And that current reward for the "risk" of TBN is that added flexibility and up to a free ~2100 extra barrier potency per minute (almost two-thirds more throughput) compared to if it cost no MP but had a fixed 25s CD. That's not insignificant.

It just feels less significant than it should because the reward is sustain, not direct damage, and the ability of tanks to leverage that towards party dps (and indeed the indirect power of tanks in general to provide party dps through means other than their own raw dps) has been so trimmed away over time (and, frankly, was never that great to begin with in XIV).

just really don't like how you have to break it current with no real benefit, but I think removing that aspect would also sort of annoy some people

On the other hand, merely softening the punishment somewhat would probably annoy almost no one.

For instance, make Dark Arts granular, having it simply act like barrier HP but for your MP, and consumable only by your attacks and only when you're below 60% MP (i.e., you wouldn't be able to get another spender off after the current one), to a max of... 5000 MP or w/e. Now, have every 2% of TBN's barrier consumed give back 1% of its cost via Dark Arts (so, 60 MP of Dark Arts for every %HP's worth of barrier consumed), doubled if the whole thing is consumed. With that, at least you have a pity prize of up to 1498 MP refunded via Dark Arts for not using up the whole thing.

Or, if you're willing to tick off those who like that sense of fighting for the full pop, skip the doubling for the full pop and just have it refund via Dark Arts 1% of TBN's cost for every 1% of TBN's barrier consumed (120 MP for every 1% HP's worth of barrier consumed).

[Jidka]

Dark Knight: Vampirism. And split Abyssal Drain and Carve/Spit's CD again so I can big succ

By vampirism, you means being healed by a percentage of your damages ?
I like the idea but it looks like the war doesn't it ? Because the war is already specialised in auto-heal when hitting enemies.

[Marxam]

I would like to see the tanks divided into flat mit and eHP tank stance i.e. Shield Oath vs Defiance. However, given how bloated shields can get with even just 10% more incoming heals I'd imagine a 25% more HP and 20% more healing tank would make SCH an auto include in savage due to crit adlos.

Regardless I would like to see some changes to universal role skills. I would simply rename Rampart to "20% mitigation skill" or something that clearly indicates what it does in just the skill name alone. From there equipping it to your desired tank job would change its animation and icon to that exclusive job i.e. PLD = Rampart, WAR = Fortify, DRK = Shadowskin etc.

They can also do the same for Vengance. Simply detach it from WAR, make it role skill, and now all jobs have access to a 30% mitigation and small counter effect. The animation rules apply to this skill as well.

Honestly there is potential in role skills to offer universal skills or actions but their animation changes when equipped, offering some uniqueness to the jobs flavor without actually changing effects. It's really the only way forward given the amount of jobs and the hyper balance of the game. You get the same skills functionally but aesthetically vastly different from each other.

[Valknut]

By vampirism, you means being healed by a percentage of your damages ?
I like the idea but it looks like the war doesn't it ? Because the war is already specialised in auto-heal when hitting enemies.

Yeah an thats reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly dumb when you have Dark knight in the game, has been draining things 20+ years since FFT

Warriors theme is so bloody dumb atm. No one would ever think WAR is a warrior from the outside in this game.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah an that reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly dumb when you have Dark knight in the game, has been draining things 20+ years since FFT

Warriors theme is so bloody dumb atm. No one would ever think WAR is a warrior from the outside in this game.

The greater consistency has been DRK spending HP. Actually stealing it (or, being healed through attacks) has tended to be reliant on long CDs or been a pretty poor use of your MP (and one's turn in general) whenever an actual healer is available.

Personally, I don't mind XIV not leaving WAR as literally just "Temporarily Increase Defense", "Temporarily Increase Crit rate", "Temporarily Increase Accuracy", etc. It sold the job as the attrition frontliner who lives or dies by the blade / 'the best defense is an overwhelming offense', and it feels pretty damn "Warrior"-like. ...Certainly more so than just a few blasé stat-increasing CDs and/or being limited to Bangaa with a damn near universal set of debuffs (Rend Power/Magick/MP/Speed, as seen on a majority of physical jobs), First Aid, and "Greased Lightning" of all things, as in Tactics.

[Valknut]

The greater consistency has been DRK spending HP. Actually stealing it (or, being healed through attacks) has tended to be reliant on long CDs or been a pretty poor use of your MP (and one's turn in general) whenever an actual healer is available.

Personally, I don't mind XIV not leaving WAR as literally just "Temporarily Increase Defense", "Temporarily Increase Crit rate", "Temporarily Increase Accuracy", etc. It sold the job as the attrition frontliner who lives or dies by the blade / 'the best defense is an overwhelming offense', and it feels pretty damn "Warrior"-like. ...Certainly more so than just a few blasé stat-increasing CDs and/or being limited to Bangaa with a damn near universal set of debuffs (Rend Power/Magick/MP/Speed, as seen on a majority of physical jobs), First Aid, and "Greased Lightning" of all things, as in Tactics.

No This only true from FF4, and even only in FF4 JP. Comparing how much you drain in FFXI to how much you spend HP for DMG is hilarious. DRK in FFTs best move is Dark sword that is a drain. The Hp saccing is the gimmick of DRK, and the Drain is the identity.

Warrior is so bland in design and theme no one has any idea what it is supposed to be. Oh its the DMG tank, no its not. It the High hp tank, yea no. Its the drain tank, wtf are you high?

DRKS thing can't be the magic tank, that's never going to pan out for either PLD or DRK.

PLD has identity, so does GNB. Its time for DRK to go back to HW, and War to do its own thing for once.

[Shurrikhan]

No This only true from FF4, and even only in FF4 JP. Comparing how much you drain in FFXI to how much you spend HP for DMG is hilarious. DRK in FFTs best move is Dark sword that is a drain. The Hp saccing is the gimmick of DRK, and the Drain is the identity.

Warrior is so bland in design and theme no one has any idea what it is supposed to be. Oh its the DMG tank, no its not. It the High hp tank, yea no. Its the drain tank, wtf are you high?

DRKS thing can't be the magic tank, that's never going to pan out for either PLD or DRK.

PLD has identity, so does GNB. Its time for DRK to go back to HW, and War to do its own thing for once.

DRK's strongest attack in Tactics, Abyssal Blade / Dark Sword --at Physical Attack + Brave/Faith + Weapon Damage (increased with proximity)-- is not a drain, but rather spends 20% of max HP.
Its drain skill is tied for its weakest, at 80% of Physical Attack + Weapon Damage. Using it costs a minimum of 25% of damage per turn even just relative to basic filler.

DRK appears by name or an obvious analog (not nearly character without related skills that is both "dark" and a knight) in about a dozen FF games, not counting XIV. In all but 2, iirc, it can sacrifices HP for added damage. In only ~4 does it generate HP, and always at significant cost to damage or is gated by a long CD.

Want what you want, but if gaining HP from attacks is to be the "identity" of DRK, why is it typically utterly absent, limited to a long CD that's still not their most notable skill, or weaker than the HP generation from attacks of competing jobs in those same games?

The direction XIV originally went with is WAR "doing its own thing for once". HP generated from attacks is not DRK-exclusive; it's not even typically found/used on DRK in amounts greater than similar jobs.

I'm fine with DRK becoming the vampiric tank instead; it does not matter to me. But there's no need to pretend WAR didn't have an identity for itself back when XIV tanks were still allowed to have them, nor that DRK has historically been more vampiric than it was.