This is the biggest reason why Tanks and Healers are designed to be braindead easy.

[Menriq]

Video posted by the SAM (Sebazy's link had Mane trying to reply to defend his behavior after this):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLtl6-XXlao

The SAM seems like legitimately the only sensible person in this entire mess.

Apparently, the SMN had been dying to trash over and over again before all of this. Mane's video in the post above by Sebazy seems to be in the middle of the dungeon, not the start of it. The enemy names I see are stuff like "Knight of Baron", and those are from after you use the crystal to dive into the memories, meaning after the first boss. So it appears Mane is trying to move the goalposts and pull the wool over people's eyes.

The SAM points out that they were at a boss fight when all this started, and the Tank had died. The SMN got agro and started running around the arena, with the SAM chasing the boss trying to hit him with melee and cast attacks, which obviously wasn't working well. That's where the "stop running" came up, as the SAM was trying to actually attack the boss. The Tank was Raised by the Healer, which is probably where the SMN said he should use provoke. Which means this had literally nothing to do with AOE attacks or trash packs.

Mane's video isn't of the whole dungeon run, nor of the boss fight in question, so it doesn't actually offer a rebuttal to the SAM's defense and description of the series of events. It also is a SECOND case of a very selective bit of information without context released by Mane (the first being the chat log), that very much seems like Mane is trying to control the narrative and mislead people.

Additionally, the SAM's video (above) has been brigaded by Xeno and Mane fans all badmouthing the SAM, with many of them not even watching the video (for example, people talking about AOE abilities when the conversation in question apparently was during a boss fight).

Again, I don't think we have enough information to fully understand the situation, but what it appears like to me is this:

Mane was kind of pulling ahead and dying over and over, then when they got to the boss, got agro when the Tank died, and was running around. When the SAM called him on that (whether you think kiting was the right idea then or not is somewhat irrelevant), Mane attacked the Tank instead, and the SAM by proxy, insisting they were friends (apparently, the SAM didn't and doesn't know the Tank at all), leading to the conversation in question. He then posted it online to try and shame (without name) the SAM, and the story was taken up by people who wanted to bash braindead rotations and players. Xeno then reacted, taking Mane's side. When the SAM, Rudrake, responded in his defense, both Xeno AND Mane used their considerable fan followings to mock and ridicule him (Mane even said something like "I shouldn't have hidden your name", implying more than a little spite), since it made their take look bad. Their fans then flooded Rudrake's posts (YouTube and Twitter) to attack him and call him names, defending their fandom/cult leaders, and then Mane posted a video that was not showing the entire event and only showing what he wanted them to see - it appears NOT to be the entire run, rather the next trash pull that happened AFTER that boss fight. Which is probably the lower part of the text conversation about AOE abilities. Which Mane did to defend his accusations and to make Rudrake look bad.

Overall:

Rudrake is the only person in this entire mess who seems sensible, though. Mane seems to be both rude AND vindictive, Xeno a pusher of drama for drama's sake and a fount of bad takes, and their collective fans as pretty horrible cultists dogpiling on the one person in the entire situation that actually seemed both measured and reasonable. Mane should step back and apologize or at least offer a truce because this is making him look REALLY bad, and Xeno should just stop being Xeno at this point.

Your takes can be different, but that's what I'm seeing, looking at all the available facts.

.



I think I agree with most of this.

.

EDIT:

Also, is it ironic to anyone else that the person at the center of all this drama is named "Mane Tank" but he wasn't Tanking?

I dunno, something about this is ironic to me...

This is certainly a take. I appreciate you explaining how you got there, but I personally think you are way off. I don't see anything that you are seeing at all.

[Rithy255]

I mean I think it's more of people generally being scared to give advice or tell someone how to AOE. I don't think it's toxic to say "hey can you press your AOE button? it takes the mobs off the DPS/Healer!." I think you can actually try to talk to someone and help them but a lot of people are frankly scared to say anything in duties. (Including me I want to have fun people people in a duty, but I know if anything is took the wrong way then I can get a warning or even more).

I feel like I was lucky as a sprout tank as i looked at guides confused why i was struggling to tank well in my first few duties, but you're meant to learn from your mistakes and advice from others... If you're not being told what you are doing isn't good for the team them they will assume they're doing the best they can.

This is how you get people in 90 duties who don't know how to press AOE, who don't know that they can afford to dps as healer sometimes, ect. Because comminating that in the first place is not something someone wants to do in the first place.

I didn't even say anything when I had a level 90 gladiator clearly griefing in my duty (most likely trying to get reactions tbh), because at the end of the day I rather just deal with the duty and get on with it, I much rather just get it over with.

[Edelgarde]

Overall:

Rudrake is the only person in this entire mess who seems sensible, though. Mane seems to be both rude AND vindictive, Xeno a pusher of drama for drama's sake and a fount of bad takes, and their collective fans as pretty horrible cultists dogpiling on the one person in the entire situation that actually seemed both measured and reasonable. Mane should step back and apologize or at least offer a truce because this is making him look REALLY bad, and Xeno should just stop being Xeno at this point.

Your takes can be different, but that's what I'm seeing, looking at all the available facts.

.



I think I agree with most of this.

.

EDIT:

Also, is it ironic to anyone else that the person at the center of all this drama is named "Mane Tank" but he wasn't Tanking?

I dunno, something about this is ironic to me...

I can’t believe you dedicated all this time writing this long post (including the previous one) while being completely wrong on every take. That is truly something special. I almost respect you for it. That is incredible. I don’t think any sane FFXIV player would even try to argue against this. You’ve broken the barrier of being so dumb that you come out the other way as being really smart. You are truly the FFXIV player of all time.

[fulminating]

Even summoner's single target rotation cleaves (mountainbuster/crimson strike/slipstream), putting the bare minimum in would still get aggro off the other mobs if noone else was doing aoe. Not to mention summon bahamut/phoenix both have an emnity increase effect baked in for whatever reason. It could be that the tank skipped and took the hall of the novice seriously - last time I checked it recommended tanks use their aoe combo once to establish hate and then single target them down?

[Renathras]

This is certainly a take. I appreciate you explaining how you got there, but I personally think you are way off. I don't see anything that you are seeing at all.

Fair enough, though I'm curious, what are you not seeing? Which specific part of my statement did you not see? Did you not see Rudrake's video? Or Mane's posts?

I can’t believe you dedicated all this time writing this long post (including the previous one) while being completely wrong on every take. That is truly something special. I almost respect you for it. That is incredible. I don’t think any sane FFXIV player would even try to argue against this. You’ve broken the barrier of being so dumb that you come out the other way as being really smart. You are truly the FFXIV player of all time.

A common tactic from people when they don't have an argument is to make a VERY general statement ("wrong on every take") instead of addressing specific points that can be proven or disproven. I could say you're "wrong on every take", and you would naturally ask "Which one, be specific?", because if I have to get specific, then you could show you were right and I was calling you wrong incorrectly.

Another problem is when people see someone arguing rationally for something, but they want to take a side. I'm taking no sides in this in the sense I'm neither defending nor condemning Tanks using or not using AOE actions. But because you may think "Mane is attacking a Tank not AOEing, so obviously anyone saying Mane is in the wrong because of his behavior or presentation of events must be taking the side of the Tank and thus be in the wrong".

In other words: You may think I'm defending the Tank, who you think is in the wrong, and thus not want to hear any appraisal that doesn't agree with Mane/say Mane is right.

But please, by all means, instead of calling people names that could get your post reported and your account banned, what SPECIFIC points was I wrong on? If I was wrong on "every take", outline it. Which takes and how am I wrong? Is Rudrake not sensible? How is he not? Is Mane not rude? Is Mane not vindictive? I gave evidence he is, so you need to present evidence that either he is not or that my evidence/analysis is in error. Are you really going to say Xeno ISN'T a pusher of drama in this community? Really? At the VERY least, on that point you have to concede I'm right.

Your take can be different, and we can disagree respectfully and agreeably. But saying someone is "completely wrong on every take" without substantiating that more says you can't and you're slandering them, and saying someone is "so dumb you come out the other way as being really smart" is pretty below board as well.

But, to be clear, I'm not saying the Tank player was right about anything - I'm not even addressing them at all. So what do you think I'm "arguing against", exactly, that no "sane FFXIV player would even try"?

[Oizen]

Your original take was more accurate. The current hotbar budget allocated to defensive actions on tanks is excessive relative to fight design, and limits the space available for more interesting offensive actions. In the absence of positioning mechanics (facilitated by wall bosses and self-positioning bosses, because the fight designers don't trust you to do this competently), you're playing with half the kit of your melee counterparts for the privilege of taking turns pressing the invuln button when the red arrow appears. It's not worth it.

I suspect if this game was released today, it probably wouldn't use a trinity design. Actual tank and healing functions have been largely vestigial since about Heavensward. And in exchange for what? A progressively dwindling impact on the only fight metric that matters? By this point, anyone who was remotely good at doing damage has already swapped over.

Not really. And these points don't even contradict each other. I don't see why you saw the need to creep on my posts as if its even relevant here.

Fact of the matter is I find that DPS is the easiest job in savage tiers, and I think Tank plays exactly like melee dps except with defensive cooldowns.
The part you're missing is I think the defensive cooldowns and their applications to fights is harder and ultimately has more expression than what dps does, which outside of very specific examples.

I do kinda view what you're saying about it as pretty reductive for the sake of it though, with your line of thinking isn't dps just push button in order and wiggle left and right or press true north? Not that positionals are even mandatory to begin with.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I like how you just straight pulling what started from a simple tweet ranting post & rile up the official forum with its subsequent responses.

A lot amusing takes to read for lunchtime break!

For the context, the following hidden part are how things started & escalates:

It starts from here.
Then Xenos reacts. (same link as OP btw)
The epilogue.
And finally, the sequel.

[IDontPetLalas]

"But please, by all means, instead of calling people names that could get your post reported and your account banned, what SPECIFIC points was I wrong on? If I was wrong on "every take", outline it. Which takes and how am I wrong? Is Rudrake not sensible? How is he not? Is Mane not rude? Is Mane not vindictive? I gave evidence he is, so you need to present evidence that either he is not or that my evidence/analysis is in error. Are you really going to say Xeno ISN'T a pusher of drama in this community? Really? At the VERY least, on that point you have to concede I'm right.

Your take can be different, and we can disagree respectfully and agreeably. But saying someone is "completely wrong on every take" without substantiating that more says you can't and you're slandering them, and saying someone is "so dumb you come out the other way as being really smart" is pretty below board as well."

LMAO, getting a bit hot-headed there, considering some of your own post history, might not want to lawyer up, but leave it at "we can disagree respectfully and agreeably", which is good advice for everyone .

[Edelgarde]

I like how you just straight pulling what started from a simple tweet ranting post & rile up the official forum with its subsequent responses.

A lot amusing takes to read for lunchtime break!

We’re all bored, my dude. No other good games are coming out for the rest of this year and FFXIV is in a content drought.

PvP is so horridly designed in FFXIV that I feel like PvP is much better in the forums.

[Boblawblah]

We’re all bored, my dude. No other good games are coming out for the rest of this year and FFXIV is in a content drought.

PvP is so horridly designed in FFXIV that I feel like PvP is much better in the forums.

Do people only play AAA games or something? There are so many awesome games out there to play. Why does it all have to be new and shiny games?