Red mage 7.0 Wishlist

[Milkbeard]

This is part of the reason why I think that the 2 minute meta is bad for the game overall. It requires everything to be designed within this small time frame and every job that existed before it will have to be gutted to end up fitting into that bubble.

Gutted you say? What would you personally bring back for red mage, from the time before this 2 minute meta? I know the streamers and twitter are very charged about this topic right now, aren't they?

[Shurrikhan]

Currently for me, it is kind of a nothing burger.

That's fair. I can often be accused of making a bit too much out of mere potential / future-proofing. That said:

The depth of gameplay involves assuming that the bare minimum mitigation wasn't going to be used by your party.

This is where we see things differently, and it doesn't come down to trust or the like nearly so much as simply fight design and the players intended to be involved in it.

If you can reasonably expect that every player will dodge every threat that is not an unavoidable party-wide, you'd be right. But I don't think that's generally so reasonable an expectation as to deny players some agency over those times when that will not be the case.

Consider:

• Almost no fights actually need oGCD heals, so long as players make no mistakes and Solace/Rapture can be saved for what movement requirements would truly prevent casted heals (while SCH pre-barriers and AST Lightspeeds and Eukrasian-Scholar wonders what cast times even are). But, we do nonetheless have those oGCD heals, and having the ability to spot-compensate for those mistakes not only offers further agency for those situations but also gives healers more to track and just generally "do" in any and all situations.
  
  
• Similarly, having some degree of burst damage available to healers, be it through above-filler-ppgcd spells or oGCD actions, feels better than not having them. They're virtually never necessary, and they aren't even part of the healer's "role", exactly, but it feels better having some than not.

Personal mitigation would not be far off from either of those two examples, except for one issue: This game's AoE heals are overpowered af. Were AoE heals partly split (200p + 1200p split over all affectable allies in range, to a max of 800p each) or by whatever other means turned into smart-heals at a far weaker maximum total potency, then non-tank personal mitigation wouldn't feel nearly so redundant or lackluster (and healing would feel better in general, to boot).

Who knows, maybe it could be a button that "negates 1 vuln" instead.

A bit of a tangent, but that is a direction I'd particularly not want to see mitigation go towards; a 30% self-shield or 30% mitigation buff, for instance, can both have that same effect as having negating 1 vuln (except in that it doesn't also save you from later hits) but can also fit other uses like greeding a weaker AoE for uptime, etc. I prefer that versatility.

[Rychu]

Gutted you say? What would you personally bring back for red mage, from the time before this 2 minute meta? I know the streamers and twitter are very charged about this topic right now, aren't they?

Haha guess that was pretty confusing since this is a Red Mage thread, sorry I should have clarified in the original post I made.

Red Mage actually transitioned pretty easily between Shadowbringers to Endwalker since it's burst lined up anyways. I was referring to every other job in the game that had to be changed to fit into the 2 minute meta. Paladin is an easy example of a job that was really good at sustained damage but because it didn't fit into the 2 minute meta, had to be mini-reworked to remove the sustained damage aspect that it was known for.

[Shurrikhan]

Paladin is an easy example of a job that was really good at sustained damage but because it didn't fit into the 2 minute meta, had to be mini-reworked to remove the sustained damage aspect that it was known for.

Tangent, but... "Sustained damage" isn't a perk. There's no value in being "good at" sustained damage. The things nearest that that may have actual benefit are merely either advantages in fight-length DPS, at least in certain types of comps (e.g., those with minimal buff value), or lesser variation in that overall damage over variation in context (such as to fight length or composition).

Jobs can have a lead in typically-produced nDPS (or "damage irrespective of buffs") or contextually in aDPS ("damage in practice," wherein the degree of buffs available and exploitation of them through burst can make large differences), but ultimately only burst offers further value than just how much damage you fit into the time between the fight's start and end; sustain does not.

That's not to say that all jobs should be equally bursty or the like, but for a job to be less bursty, it would generally need something else/more in compensation; otherwise, the same raw damage just means less actual / in-practice damage.

And that, in turn becomes a bit of a can of worms for balancing, as you end up with less coordination-dependent jobs just being outright superior into some turning point and, like Dancers' (who want to be matched with a "selfish" DPS for greatest total party value between themselves and their partner) compositional obligations, you end up splitting comps into Minimal Coordination (low burst and low buffs, and therefore less party damage coming from exploitation of buffs) vs. Maximal Coordination (the opposite), where Minimal Coordination would punish deaths and desync significantly less.

[SieyaM]

Sieya, this is clearly a reminder for myself that it isn't always what I say that incites a response, it is how I say it. I'm not trying to sway anyones opinion that this was like a hot shot optimization. I could have stated it differently, and I apologize. Personal mitigation is currently not too great as whole concept.(yet! who knows, it one day could change!). Optimizing all fun out of the game isn't the point of the wishlist, so don't feel discouraged, please still recommend what you would think is fun if they added it to the class in 7.0.

I did earlier in this thread, but I know it is very unlikely since it would not only change fundamentally the way RDM plays, but could very easily become an unbalance mess of a job. Stance switching between a black and white magic stance similar to the PvP actions of RDM with white magic having a heavy focus on support abilities and black magic having a focus on personal damage, meaning it would have no group buffs or other support abilities while using black magic. Unless it is balanced in such a way that the support offered in the white magic stance equated to the same DPS in black magic then in group play you would only be using the one stance. I do feel it would give the job some kind of player expression though and much more versatility.

[Sylvain]

Sprint should not consume dual cast

Do not give red mage a dot.

Agreed

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Do not give anymore OGCD moves. There is currently too many OGCDs in the opener. Another OGCD would certainly result in a triple weave in the opener.

It depends how it’s implemented. If it’s just yet-another regular ogcd like contre-sixte, Fleche, Displacement and Engagement, sure I agree.
I wouldn’t mind a rework of Displacement, Engagement and Corps-a-Crops. I feel like Displacement and Corps à Corps shouldn’t deal any damage. And I wouldn’t mind Engagement to be replaced by a different ability. I wouldn’t mind a new “crystal like” ogcd.

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Give red mage a way of building resource during down time. Other than manafication.

I don’t feel like this is necessary.
BLM gets mana back and Xenoglossy
SMN gets closer to Bahamut/Phoenix
RDM gets closer to Manafication and their ogcd recover
Feels fine to me. VerFire/Earth proc are long enough that unless the boss is out for a really long time, the proc should still be up.

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Maintain the current flow
A very common view point is that less is more when it comes to 7.0 changes. Many are agreeing that the class has a very sturdy foundation and flow. It doesn't need an overhaul. Any 7.0 changes shouldn't be too drastic, the rotation that was established in Endwalker is great the way that it is.

The flow Is good, I do feel a few changes are necessary and raising the ceiling a little bit wouldn’t hurt. SMN and RDM feel really … “simple” compared to BLM when it comes to optimizing your cast and rotation for a fight. Not saying they should be as difficult as BLM, but “a bit more” wouldn’t hurt.
My 2 personal wishlist would be
- You need to alternate between VerFlare/Holy as it is weird that those two spells are the only one not affected by the “balance” theme of the RDM. A simple “your next Flare/Holy (opposite) deal 25% more damage” would be enough to ensure the swap.
- The downtime after each verwind/thunder feels really bad as it breaks the flow of cast. We basically spend half of our time doing nothing waiting for the gcd to refresh. I would like the recast time of verThunder/Wind to be reduced to 2.0 or even 1.5s. (although that might be too short)

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Downtime[/B]
-Give some way of building resource when the boss is absent in order to meet the same standards as the other two casters during content where bosses leave for prolonged periods of time.

[B][U]
Perhaps making vercure apply a regen buff to the RDM to both mana (if cast in combat, we don’t need precast before fight). This way RDM could gain a few black/white mp during downtime and it wouldn’t add “yet another” button for something extremely situational

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Mobility
Red mage is currently relying on sword combo, their burst, for movement. Where other classes gained utility and quality of life changes to help them move this expansion, red mage is left having to use it's burst to obtain similar mobility.

RDM already have a lot of “omnipresent” mobility, but as you pointed out, it lacks “ongoing mobility”. It’s basically the opposite of the BLM. The BLM could, if he wanted, have 30s of instant cast but then have very little movement.
Overall, with Thunder/Wind, Reprise and Melee combo, RDM mobility is rather solide for about 90% of cases. Managing long movement as a RDM is literally the only technical thing about the job. I don’t think it would serve the job well. When Reprise didn’t exist, I was a fierce advocate of giving RDM something for prolonged movement, they have one now. The melee combo can now be stored granting 6 instant (more like 5 in term of time). Yes, it’s a burst, and so is Xenoglossy and they’re part of the BLM movement tool.

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Damage
There is a common belief that red mage's placement in terms of dps and support output isn't landing it in balanced spot in an 8-man team when compared to the other casters.

Y.P recently confirmed that more difficult job should do more dps to reward. This is tricky considering FF14 raiding scene is all about DPS when dealing with harder content. Making BLM an obvious choice. Knowing this, I feel like RDM would benefit from being a bit harder to play if this would grant him access to a bit better DPS. Support is good, but it really falls short when people start to overgear. I feel like verraise hurts RDM more than it helps, often placing it as the “rez-bot-support”. RDM isn’t a support, it’s a DPS.
I personally feel like all caster should have access to a rez. An instant with a 2min CD. This would elleviate the “support burden” the RDM has. (as well as healers stuck in a no SMN/RDM party)

[Rychu]

Tangent, but... "Sustained damage" isn't a perk. There's no value in being "good at" sustained damage. The things nearest that that may have actual benefit are merely either advantages in fight-length DPS, at least in certain types of comps (e.g., those with minimal buff value), or lesser variation in that overall damage over variation in context (such as to fight length or composition).

Oh yeah I didn't mean it like a perk or a benefit, more as just a different option. Like I think it's a little unfair to people who aren't a fan of bursting classes that there is quite literally no options for them.

And this is coming from someone that is perfectly happy with Red Mage's rotation as is which fits perfectly in the 2 minute meta

[Komaru_Tatoro]

what are ppl thought if you get an upgraded reprise that does not cost blk/white gauge once you done 3 melee. just like how you start the magic combo, even if you mess up the sequence order.

the upgrade reprise then can be use anytime before the next 3 melee combo before it gets overwritten.
this is the extra movement ability other than the dev adding yet another charge to acceleration instead.

obviously the potency need to be tune so that its worthwhile to use or maybe have an option to spend it during burst too?
well as long its not useless and maybe not too powerful too???

[Rychu]

what are ppl thought if you get an upgraded reprise that does not cost blk/white gauge once you done 3 melee. just like how you start the magic combo, even if you mess up the sequence order.

I am actually pretty on board with successful melee combos giving a stack of an upgrade reprise that we can bank for heavy movement mechanics, definitely not a bad idea.

or maybe have an option to spend it during burst too?

This; however, is a terrible idea. If the idea is to give us more movement choices that doesn't involve needing to have 50/50 mana built up, then this inherently takes away that choice. Take this part out of your suggestion Komaru and you have a wonderful suggestion.

[Komaru_Tatoro]

combine the 3 melee to one button. to free up two button slot.
the purpose is to save atleast 1 button slot for this new job mechanic im suggesting.

new guage that has 3or4 qty spell count (i want 4qty, just want it to be different than monk's master gauge which is 3. and 4 means more opportunity for more combination)
only verholy and verflare trigger ea spell count. ex, hhff, hfhf, etc...
once you got all spell count, depending on the pattern, this new either gcd or ogcd button press will do something. gcd means another free movement after 3-4 cycles *smirk*
could be along the line of buff/dmg enemy/heal/etc.
when pressed, it will reset the gauge to 3-4 nothing/void pattern, which cannot be active unless it has 4 pattern again.

you can think of it like the monks master guage (monk master gauge only deal dps?? which is why i say its a mix with astro) but have an effect like astro's minor arcana (as in can be dps or buff or mit)

I will say, the gauge always start with a preset pattern, thus this button can be used on the opener?