Red mage 7.0 Wishlist

[Milkbeard]

I'm considering the changes made to RDM for Dawntrail a net win when compared to this list we made. Thanks guys! and Thanks square. If you nailed the prediction why don't you throw down a follow-up post and a like!

Sprint should not consume dual cast

Do not give red mage a dot.

Consolidate before adding more OGCD moves. There is currently too many OGCDs in the opener. Another OGCD would certainly result in a triple weave in the opener so any additional Ogcds added to the rotation would need to be accommodated with consolidations elsewhere in our moveset.

Give red mage a way of building resource during down time. Other than manafication.

Enchanted Reprise has been a constant point of conversation on this thread. All players who have mentioned it agree, that it is currently is not a fun move. It functions as a punishment in exchange for mobility- This move could be changed for the better. Bare in mind that most players agree that less is more, when changing red mage, but removing the punishing aspects of the move would be appreciated.

Glamour!!! Get ready for some adjectives! There needs to be more form-fitting, masculine, armored, butlery, buiesness-y, rogue-like, dancer-y additions to the caster sets. Things you could see people back flipping in!


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Here are some notes from players being said in this thread


Maintain the current flow
A very common view point is that less is more when it comes to 7.0 changes. Many are agreeing that the class has a very sturdy foundation and flow. It doesn't need an overhaul. Any 7.0 changes shouldn't be too drastic, the rotation that was established in Endwalker is great the way that it is.
Notes:
-This expansion demonstrated that there is potential for including more transforming button mappings in order to condense abilities/spells that are not usable until conditions such as resource or comboing. (talking about verflare and verholy) perhaps parts of the sword combo could be replaced with more usable moves until the combo/mana requirements are met for using their enchanted versions.


Downtime
Red mages fall behind the other casters and some of the phys ranged during long fights where bosses disappear. They have no way of building resource when the boss is gone, making the reopeners often lack luster when compared to their xenoglossying/bahumuting brothers.
Notes:
-Manarushing misaligns parts of the swordcombo with embolden, which isn't ideal - its a weakness brought on from downtime, not a strength. Popping manaification when a boss is gone, we're looking at you, savages and the ultimates, feels bad.
-Giving red mage a time built resource like xenoglossy or afflatus misery could be a potential fix for when they fall behind in fights where the boss leaves.
-Give some way of building resource when the boss is absent in order to meet the same standards as the other two casters during content where bosses leave for prolonged periods of time.

Mobility
Red mage is currently relying on sword combo, their burst, for movement. Where other classes gained utility and quality of life changes to help them move this expansion, red mage is left having to use it's burst to perform similar mobility.
Notes:
-issues specifically arise when doing savage and ultimate content.
-There is nothing wrong with sword combo facilitating movement, but it shouldn't be our primary means of movement for every mechanic. Options such as an improved version of enchanted reprise could be a useful utility to help us versus having to potentially misalign our burst to meet the base movement standards of a hardcore mechanic.
-one potential fix for this could involve shortening the cast times of the core spells in order offer more time for movement during our recast.
-Players have strong opinions about enchanted reprise. The mana cost for it is currently a punishment in exchange for mobility. This does not facilitate a satisfying game play loop. The current goal in savage and end game content is to achieve clears without even pressing it. All players on this forum have so far expressed that this move could be changed for the better.
-Giving red mage a time built resource like xenoglossy or afflatus misery could be a potential fix for this as well
-Removing the potency from the movement based skills (corp-a-cor and displacement) could have their intended use of being for movement, be their primary use.

Damage
There is a common belief that red mage's placement in terms of dps and support output isn't landing it in balanced spot in an 8-man team composition, when compared to the other casters.
Notes:
-Red mage damage falls behind summoner, some say its not by a lot, but it can easily fall behind both summoner and some of phys ranged roles, then that is a big issue. Red mages fear there is not as much of a reason to play the job if it is competing with black mages for the caster spot all while being out dps'd by some classes in the phys ranged role.
-The current skill ceiling does not reward the damage and utility output. Some are left asking why play red mage when easier options are outputting more damage and comparable support with less difficulty. The current placement in the hierarchy just doesn't quite add up. If it is because red mage can raise more than once, then the innate value of being able to raise more than once needs to be reevaluated by the dev team.
-Some Red mages believe that the class could benefit from personal mitigation. Other red mages are apprehensive of such implementation being redundant with group mit like magick barrier and addle.

Ogcd clutter
There is currently too many OGCDs in the opener.
Notes:
-There is ogcd clutter in the opener, the introduction of another would involve triple weaving in the opener.
-Some say the class could do with more or different ogcds being more widely available during the rotation.
-Removing the potency from movement skills could reduce Ogcd clutter in the opener, if such a change were made, we'd expect the potency be distributed into other red mage moves.

Glamour
The limited number of hats and clothing options stifles our creativity. There needs to be more form-fitting, masculine, armored, butler, or rogue-like additions to the caster sets. Things you could see people back flipping in! Yea we're saying it twice!


New animations for possible new moves
People have creative ideas for new and preexisting animations/abilities/spells for red mage. We want to share what we've come up with and why we think they deserve a spot somewhere in our aesthetics.
Notes:
-There is more room for exploring spells that feature the blueish white swords red mages summon for contre sixte and fleche. Perhaps they could be added to our sword combo, mobility buff, or decorate the spell finisher!
-A new verfinisher. Some like the idea of it being equally black and white mana'd in aesthetic. Perhaps taking inspiration from ultima magic? Referencing the ultima weapon animations or ultima's from past games?
-Perhaps we could get a unique animation for when a spell is dual casted vs being hardcasted (instead of the same animation clipping and playing twice)
-addition of a transforming button map for verthunder and veraero where by acceleration procs a temporary upgraded versions of the spells with new animations and higher potency!


PVP RDM elements finding their way into PVE
It seems a decent amount of people like the idea of aspects of PVP red mage making an appearance in PVE, white meaning support traits added, black meaning damage traits added.
Notes:
-People seem to like the idea that mana balance could impact the class in more aspects than just deciding which finisher to use at the end of your combo. Some are apprehensive on how changes like this could affect the already higher than average skill ceiling of the class.
-There is potential for condensing the sword combo into 1 button outside of pvp. This button would need to cost 15/15 mana to maintain certain instances where a single target sword GCD can help reach spell finishers. Many red mages believe a change such as this isn't necessary- the class rotation isn't cluttered, and we look forward to pressing those buttons when it is time to burst. Having more buttons for swinging the sword adds weight and credence to the fact that red mages are carrying a sword. When condensed into one key it may feel like we are just watching our character rather than playing through a core part of the class identity.


Survival
As far as players have recorded, red mages die more than other classes.
-Red mages could benefit from a stat change to reflect the lack of personal mit.
-Some red mages would prefer the addition of personal mit.
-Buffs to group mitigation such as addle and Magick Barrier could be useful to counter this trend.


Support tax
People seem to dislike the entire concept of "support tax" where if you add more support to a class then by virtue it must deal less damage
Support tax is a concept that is wildly variable and has no set laws or standard of measurement. Don't feel bad if you would like to wish for both more damage and more support from this class while on this thread. I doubt that the developers are actively trying to cook us if they mention that there is some level of give and take when it comes to support vs dps output- stay positive about other's ideas, don't feel apprehensive because of the hypothetical "tax". I'm sure they are more than aware by this point that the concept of support tax doesn't sit well with this community. Try and keep this a wishlist and understand that this class has room to deal more dps and offer more support.
The actual value of being able to raise more than once needs to be reevaluated by the team. It should not correlate with our damage output and be apart of the hypothetical "Support Tax".



Thoughts?

[Rongway]

Do not give red mage a dot.

Do not give anymore OGCD moves.

100% agree

Give red mage a time built resource like xenoglossy or afflatus misery. The ultimate fights feature too much downtime and they have fallen behind summoner and black mage in this expansion due to those classes benefiting greatly from down time as of 6.0.

I would really like for Enchanted Reprise to spend a charge of timed gauge instead of 5|5 Mana, and [deal increased damage and/or generate at least 2|2 mana] so that using it is a damage gain as well as a mobility gain, but it's only usable 2-3 times per minute.


I don't want any other changes beyond potency traits, really. Most of the remaining problems with RDM were fixed with the addition of triple Moulinet and AoE Verfinishing Combo and the equalization of Engagement with Displacement. Now I just need a couple extra GCDs of mobility that aren't a damage loss.

[Milkbeard]

so that using it is a damage gain as well as a mobility gain, but it's only usable 2-3 times per minute.

This sounds like a great idea, a simple change to a move that already exists, that would make it more viable while also solving one of our issues with prolonged down time and movement.

[Silverquick]

Personally I feel one of the biggest improvements of the Red Mage over the last few iterations was being able to do the combo with only a 60% gauge.

Sure enchanted Reprise kinda falls by the wayside, but the ability to do combo upon combo has been huge.

One of the biggest additions I noticed was the Scorch and Resolution both adding Mana back to the gauge. It is so easy now to have another combo very quickly ready that I rarely have to spend time verthunder/aero anymore. Scorch was paying dividends in ShB but boy when you added Resolution to it, its just combo after combo these days.

One of the biggest changes I've noticed in playing Red Mage throughout the iterations is that even though it started as a kind of in and out fighter... nowadays due to the way it all works its firmly a job that stays mostly in melee range in order to take advantage of those continuous combos. That being the case...

1. Magic Barrier needs a 20 second duration if the CD is gonna be that long. Should at least be comparable to Embolden. It never should have had a 10s duration, that was utterly done without thinking.

2. Because of the way the continuous combos work and having to spend the majority of time in melee range and almost never leave... I suggest a new personal "heal" akin to Adlo. Keeping an Adlo style Preheal on you will give the Rdm staying power on the front line. Which can be a problem. So while I realize RDM DPS is NEVER going to be at the level of other DPS jobs, (or they would have done it long ago) it does need staying power on the front line.
RDM may not get damage... but he would then have Defense.

3. The reason I suggest Adloquium style is to differentiate it from the BLM and SMN Shielding and that type of a Shielding would set it apart while still maintaining staying power for the RDM on the front line, and fit the WHM?BLM/Fighter combo it is supposed to be.

Again this is all due to how much the RDM has changed since it's inception back in Stormblood.

I personally do not see mobility problems with the class right now, and most of that has to do with the fact I rarely have to spend much time anymore Verthunder/VerAeroing to build my guage back up. That USED to be the largest portion of my time spent Red Maging... It no longer is due to how the gauge and buildup, work much faster now. Most of my mobility is either handled with Corps'a'Corps or Displacement, because I need to be in melee range nowadays. If I'm out of it, it's only briefly.

[Rongway]

2. Because of the way the continuous combos work and having to spend the majority of time in melee range and almost never leave... I suggest a new personal "heal" akin to Adlo. Keeping an Adlo style Preheal on you will give the Rdm staying power on the front line. Which can be a problem. So while I realize RDM DPS is NEVER going to be at the level of other DPS jobs, (or they would have done it long ago) it does need staying power on the front line.
RDM may not get damage... but he would then have Defense.

Please no. I don't want more survivability actions to be taxed for. Just give me more dps.

I personally do not see mobility problems with the class right now, and most of that has to do with the fact I rarely have to spend much time anymore Verthunder/VerAeroing to build my guage back up. That USED to be the largest portion of my time spent Red Maging... It no longer is due to how the gauge and buildup, work much faster now.

That is your own misconception from your perception of banking combos so that you can multicombo, which is masking your recollection of the time spent building up those banked combos. We objectively still have to spend a lot of time casting:

             *Ready*
Action        Mana      Time  
Manafication  50|50       0.0s
Combo          0| 0       5.2s
Verfinishing *19| 8      12.7s
Dualcast      24|14*     17.7s
Dualcast     *30|19      22.7s
Dualcast      35|25*     27.7s
Dualcast      35|36*     32.7s
Dualcast     *41|41      37.7s
Dualcast      46|47*     42.7s
Dualcast     *52|52      47.7s
Dualcast     *63|52      52.7s
Dualcast      68|58*     57.7s
Dualcast     *74|63      62.7s
Dualcast      79|69*     67.7s
Dualcast     *85|74      72.7s
Dualcast      90|80*     77.7s
Dualcast     *96|85      82.7s
Combo        *46|35      87.9s
Verfinishing *54|54*     95.4s
Combo        * 4| 4*    100.6s
Verfinishing *12|23*    108.1s

Assuming you get a proc on every Dualcast, that's 28 non combo GCDs per 18 combo GCDs. Even if you make three of those casts instant, this is still more than half of the fight spent Dualcasting.

Most of my mobility is either handled with Corps'a'Corps or Displacement, because I need to be in melee range nowadays. If I'm out of it, it's only briefly.

You cannot depend on Displacement for movement because basically every non-storymode arena has a death wall, and mechanics that alternate between a stack-on-boss-center to an immediate out are very common.

[jdgev]

Please no. I don't want more survivability actions to be taxed for. Just give me more dps.

You're not gonna get more DPS (relative to other jobs), because there is no way in heck they will make Red Mage deal more damage than Summoner from a design perspective. That's never going to happen because Red Mage is a hybrid support-DPS job by the jobs design, and by long standing FF tradition.

So yeah, at least give RDM:
a) More support so it justifies it's lower damage (it's not a tax it's intentional, calling it a tax is ridiculous when it's literally the jobs design to use support).
b) More tools/options to make use of their main ability: dual cast.
c) A mechanic/bar that can that be toggled between white/black magic boost like they have on PVP, boosting support abilities when White, and boosting damage when Black or altering effects of certain abilities like in PVP.

Red Mage is a jack of all trades, master of none type of job. It's never going to be a high damage dealing job, just as Black Mage will never get a heal or a res.

PS: Checked and yeah RDM is basically on par or very slightly bellow SMN in damage. Exactly as it's intended. So yeah, we aren't getting more damage unless it's by non-intentional imbalance.

[Silverquick]

Please no. I don't want more survivability actions to be taxed for. Just give me more dps.

Do you have any idea of how long Red Mages have been asking for that. The answer has always been a flat no.

It is not coming any time soon. You talk about being "taxed" for non-DPS actions. They're F'n lying man trying to justify something that is not about that. Other jobs are not "taxed" for those kinds of actions. Yeah not even SMN.

That is your own misconception from your perception of banking combos so that you can multicombo, which is masking your recollection of the time spent building up those banked combos. We objectively still have to spend a lot of time casting:

             *Ready*
Action        Mana      Time  
Manafication  50|50       0.0s
Combo          0| 0       5.2s
Verfinishing *19| 8      12.7s
Dualcast      24|14*     17.7s
Dualcast     *30|19      22.7s
Dualcast      35|25*     27.7s
Dualcast      35|36*     32.7s
Dualcast     *41|41      37.7s
Dualcast      46|47*     42.7s
Dualcast     *52|52      47.7s
Dualcast     *63|52      52.7s
Dualcast      68|58*     57.7s
Dualcast     *74|63      62.7s
Dualcast      79|69*     67.7s
Dualcast     *85|74      72.7s
Dualcast      90|80*     77.7s
Dualcast     *96|85      82.7s
Combo        *46|35      87.9s
Verfinishing *54|54*     95.4s
Combo        * 4| 4*    100.6s
Verfinishing *12|23*    108.1s

No I'm really not,

If you are really doing it that way, you are spending way too much time building up to 100 Mana when you don't need to anymore. In reality you only need to build up to 50 mana to do a combo, I go 60 for a buffer but not always. The Dual Casts are about half what you demonstrated in your chart. It's why I'm sitting in melee all the time. You get even a single proc which you usually do after a finisher, and you're building much faster even than that. The only time I'm up at 100 Mana is when I'm building up for Boss fight with trashmobs in dungeon or Alliance Raid for the next fight.

Secondly you are assuming everything is an 8-Man what you showed only applies there, not to Alliance Raids or Expert Dungeons.

But even if you were to assume that, You're still spending time building to 100 when you no longer have to do that. It's much quicker these days. Yeah Enchanted Reprise kinda falls into the unused toolset now, but doing faster finishers will do more damage in the end, because that's the big damage portion and you do it much faster and more of them.

And it is because of that, and because you end up just sitting in melee range all the time that I am starting to suggest staying power in melee. Hence the Adlo idea and DEFINITELY extending the Magic Barrier to be the equivalent time to Embolden.

[Milkbeard]

If you are really doing it that way, you are spending way too much time building up to 100 Mana when you don't need to anymore. In reality you only need to build up to 50 mana to do a combo, I go 60 for a buffer but not always. The Dual Casts are about half what you demonstrated in your chart. It's why I'm sitting in melee all the time. You get even a single proc which you usually do after a finisher, and you're building much faster even than that. The only time I'm up at 100 Mana is when I'm building up for Boss fight with trashmobs in dungeon or Alliance Raid for the next fight.

Secondly you are assuming everything is an 8-Man what you showed only applies there, not to Alliance Raids or Expert Dungeons.

But even if you were to assume that, You're still spending time building to 100 when you no longer have to do that. It's much quicker these days. Yeah Enchanted Reprise kinda falls into the unused toolset now, but doing faster finishers will do more damage in the end, because that's the big damage portion and you do it much faster and more of them.

And it is because of that, and because you end up just sitting in melee range all the time that I am starting to suggest staying power in melee. Hence the Adlo idea and DEFINITELY extending the Magic Barrier to be the equivalent time to Embolden.

Just to quickly follow up with this.
Silver,
he listed the exact amount of time that is necessary for building the mana for a combo. It is a fact that you are casting more than you are sword comboing as a red mage. Its not just a preference, style of gameplay, or tailored to a specific encounter, red mage literally needs to cast more than it can do melee hits in all given encounters.

The mobility issues that individuals are talking about exist specifically within savage and ultimate content. No jobs, including red mage, have any mobility issues in the content outside of savage and ultimate raiding. To understand where people are coming from with the mobility gripe with red mage, you have to share their same experience- if you aren't doing that content, then yea, of course you can say that you have no issues with mobility, but that does not mean the class doesn't have mobility issues. It literally cannot do some of the mechanics because it's mobility is tied to its burst. Other jobs have utility that helps them move, we literally have to give up burst to move sometimes.

[Silverquick]

Just to quickly follow up with this.
Silver,
he listed the exact amount of time that is necessary for building the mana for a combo. It is a fact that you are casting more than you are sword comboing as a red mage. Its not just a preference, style of gameplay, or tailored to a specific encounter, red mage literally needs to cast more than it can do melee hits in all given encounters..

Lol don't worry this isn't about me and Rongway in some kind of fight.

He doesn't play that way either,(ie the way his chart demos). He knows full well not to go to 100%.

The things we are talking about came out of the end of Shadowbringers when there was a new way of Red Maging put forward back then. And I remember him being one of the people putting it forward. It's why I know he doesn't play that way either. It was basically this... the idea of skipping Enchanted Reprise and just using the bump from Verflare/Holy + Scorch to run faster combos and staying in melee the whole time. I was skeptical back then because I didn't think that it would make that much difference as Reprise was 300+ potency.

But decided to give it a try anyway and it did actually result in more combos, it wasn't overly significant, just worthwhile to do.

That didn't come until Endwalker.

Now we the finisher is VerFlare/Holy (600p) + Scorch (680p) + Resolution (750p) for a whopping 2000+ potency and a much more noticeable bump in Mana from them allowing you to combo almost repeatedly with a LOT less time spent doing Dual Casting. Because just as often as not you go Verfire/Stone ready when you do your finisher with an even bigger manabuild after that.

Now it really is eye-popping. His ideas may not have been significant back then, but they are now. RDM is, believe it or not, much more mobile now than it used to be due to that, and we spend significantly less time Dual Casting.. BUT the RDM playstyle has changed significantly to account for that where we really do spend that much more time in melee range.

While I do not deny that your point about the bad design of the Savage/Ultimates is true, that does not just affect RDM that affects all melee classes tied to a gauge not just RDM. RDM just happens to be affected by it because... well we are one now just due to the way things work.

Sad that Reprise fell to disuse, but

[Rongway]

No I'm really not,

If you are really doing it that way, you are spending way too much time building up to 100 Mana when you don't need to anymore. In reality you only need to build up to 50 mana to do a combo, I go 60 for a buffer but not always. The Dual Casts are about half what you demonstrated in your chart.

Whether you build up to 92|81 with Manafication available to do a triple combo or you combo immediately on 50|51 at every opportunity, you MUST spend the same amount of time building up Mana every 110 seconds: about 28 GCDs, less 1 Dualcast for residual Mana if your procs work out perfectly, plus up to 2 additional Dualcasts if you don't get any procs at all. That's between 65 and 80 seconds of Mana generation every 110 seconds. Whether you split this time into three sections or one is irrelevant. You still spend that much time on Mana generation, and during most of that time you can only move in short 2 second steps.


If a party burst ends immediately before an in-out or out-in mechanic and you have a depleted gauge, there may be no mobility option but to use E.Reprise, and E.Reprise is currently not a button we want to press. That would be easily fixed by making it cost a charge of timed gauge and increasing its potency or making it generate positive Mana.