The "tenacity" Problem (other melds aswell)

[DRKoftheAzure]

In regards to Tenacity(and Piety in case healer mains see this) just make it also increase Direct Hit Rate stat so I can save my Direct Hit Rate materia for DPS jobs... it's not rocket science...

As for Skill/spell speed... I agree with merging the 2 stats into 1, but let's focus on making them better first... like having them affect cast and recast timers for abilities and auto attack delay... that would be a good start...

[Absurdity]

As for Skill/spell speed... I agree with merging the 2 stats into 1, but let's focus on making them better first... like having them affect cast and recast timers for abilities and auto attack delay... that would be a good start...

Auto attacks, just like DoTs and HoTs, are based on server ticks so unless we get a massive overhaul to how the game fundamentally works this is never going to happen.

Like I said even if it's a non meta stat, it would be nicer for it to actually bring actual upsides for the 95% of players who don't care about meta speed killing and squeezing every semblance of damage out anyway, having tenacity as a safety net stat while running a fight for the first time would actually be helpful for learning a fight, then that player can switch to a damaged focus set if they're struggling with checks, problem is you can't really easily switch between stats? almost like I suggested a way of having multiple meld slots on the same gear.

The problem is that even as a safety net it would still be pretty much a dead stat. In easy content like expert dungeons, normal and alliance raids it wouldn't matter because tanks themselves are already the safety net, you can easily survive getting hit by multiple mechanics while you figure out how they actually work.

In content where even tanks might want an extra a safety net however most mechanics you're supposed to dodge simply deal so much damage that no amount of extra mitigation from tenacity would make a difference. But even the mechanics that don't oneshot you in savage can be survived by tanks quite easily already, you just eat a damage down and when you get those your problem is now once again not survivability but damage output.

[Rithy255]

Auto attacks, just like DoTs and HoTs, are based on server ticks so unless we get a massive overhaul to how the game fundamentally works this is never going to happen.



The problem is that even as a safety net it would still be pretty much a dead stat. In easy content like expert dungeons, normal and alliance raids it wouldn't matter because tanks themselves are already the safety net, you can easily survive getting hit by multiple mechanics while you figure out how they actually work.

In content where even tanks might want an extra a safety net however most mechanics you're supposed to dodge simply deal so much damage that no amount of extra mitigation from tenacity would make a difference. But even the mechanics that don't oneshot you in savage can be survived by tanks quite easily already, you just eat a damage down and when you get those your problem is now once again not survivability but damage output.

Tanks should take more damage from failing mechs then they do in normal content currently (I think tanks should be punished more anyway for messing up), Theirs a reason why In SHB tanks like DRK/WAR were still useful because tanks weren't all built defensively the same, PLD/GNB was meta for damage, while the other tanks brought more survivability which used to actually be important before tanks became all absurdly over defensive.

A higher "damage" realistically only matters if 1. You can't beat the DPS check 2. Speed kills, other then that damage doesn't actually matter unironically, It's just the mindset of people who weigh damage too high outside of those situations (not to say you shouldn't contribute as much dps as you can but it isn't the be all end all, I'm not going to be annoyed if the dungeon duty takes 20 seconds longer because someone didn't do as much damage as possible).

Extra defensive value would actually be valuable if the fights were designed around tanks actually taking a decent amount of damage, as it would be easier to manage your cooldowns and make it so you can kitchen synch less which in turn would actually benefit healer design because they'd have to take more care of tanks that are using a full crit/offensive set instead of just mashing glare and throwing out a AOE heal, surviving more failed mechs ect. Not saying it would translate well right now but that's because every tank is too overtuned defensively anyway.

[Mikey_R]

Auto attacks, just like DoTs and HoTs, are based on server ticks so unless we get a massive overhaul to how the game fundamentally works this is never going to happen.

The time between Auto Attacks is not based on server time, it is based on weapon. Every weapon has a stat called 'delay' and this is the time, in seconds, between auto attacks. You can test this out yourself by timing the time between Auto Attacks. I did do this myself, timing over 5 Auto Attacks between Monk (2.56), Red Mage (3.44) and Paladin (2.24). I only done one test each, but it was enough to show the difference with the Monk taking ~10:30 seconds, Paladin taking ~11:30 seconds and Red Mage taking ~17:30 seconds. Note that Monk takes less time because of Greased Lightning, but if you were to calculate that out, it would have taken them ~12.80 seconds, which, when divided down gets close to 2.56 seconds.

As a small detail, you will notice that weapons for the same job will always have the same Auto Attack delay, this wasn't always the case and if you look at older weapons, you will notice they will have different delays. However, they were always balanced so that the auto attacks would always provide the same damage (assuming same ilevel). As an example, Paladin's Giantsgall Longsword and Mail Breaker have stats of 42.40 AA and 2.4 delay and 38.16 AA and 2.16 delay, if you divide the AA by delay, you get ~17.6 for both, so they both do the same total damage over time.

Extra defensive value would actually be valuable if the fights were designed around tanks actually taking a decent amount of damage, as it would be easier to manage your cooldowns and make it so you can kitchen synch less which in turn would actually benefit healer design because they'd have to take more care of tanks that are using a full crit/offensive set instead of just mashing glare and throwing out a AOE heal, surviving more failed mechs ect. Not saying it would translate well right now but that's because every tank is too overtuned defensively anyway.

As a reference, with stats scaling as they currently do, if you had a theoretical set of gear that had maximum tenacity, you reduce all damage by ~12%. (As a reference to where I got that number from: https://youtu.be/stgUbtFKu74?si=TzRF0yS78uio6vka&t=93 also goes over why it is considered bad).

Now, as for tanks taking more damage, you have to remember this is something that will affect both tanks and healers. If the tank takes more damage, they healer has to heal more. If you stack tenacity, it would seem an obvious conclusion that the healer would have to heal less, but this isn't necessarily the case. I'm just going to go straight to the heart of the matter and that is going to be, will stacking tenacity save the healer a GCD heal? If the answer is no, then there is no point stacking it, if you can, then that means there is a break point for that to happen, so people will just stack to that value and ignore it after that, effectively making it a new accuracy stat. This will also mean SE will always have to make sure you can have the desired amount of tenacity, which was a nightmare in HW trying to get and keep enough accuracy even whilst upgrading gear.

Ultimately, forcing players to have a certain stat spread because the game forced you into it isn't fun, you should be able to gear as you want, which amounts to crit > all, but that is a different discussion.

[Absurdity]

Extra defensive value would actually be valuable if the fights were designed around tanks actually taking a decent amount of damage, as it would be easier to manage your cooldowns and make it so you can kitchen synch less which in turn would actually benefit healer design because they'd have to take more care of tanks that are using a full crit/offensive set instead of just mashing glare and throwing out a AOE heal, surviving more failed mechs ect. Not saying it would translate well right now but that's because every tank is too overtuned defensively anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against tanks taking more damage in general. However, now we've moved from just redesigning Tencacity to changing encounters and potentially the tank role so this single stat can have some use, which is a bit more dev work.

The time between Auto Attacks is not based on server time, it is based on weapon. Every weapon has a stat called 'delay' and this is the time, in seconds, between auto attacks. You can test this out yourself by timing the time between Auto Attacks. I did do this myself, timing over 5 Auto Attacks between Monk (2.56), Red Mage (3.44) and Paladin (2.24). I only done one test each, but it was enough to show the difference with the Monk taking ~10:30 seconds, Paladin taking ~11:30 seconds and Red Mage taking ~17:30 seconds. Note that Monk takes less time because of Greased Lightning, but if you were to calculate that out, it would have taken them ~12.80 seconds, which, when divided down gets close to 2.56 seconds.

As a small detail, you will notice that weapons for the same job will always have the same Auto Attack delay, this wasn't always the case and if you look at older weapons, you will notice they will have different delays. However, they were always balanced so that the auto attacks would always provide the same damage (assuming same ilevel). As an example, Paladin's Giantsgall Longsword and Mail Breaker have stats of 42.40 AA and 2.4 delay and 38.16 AA and 2.16 delay, if you divide the AA by delay, you get ~17.6 for both, so they both do the same total damage over time.

I stand corrected. The question I would have then is why does Skillspeed only increase auto attack damage if the game is clearly capable of different attack intervals?

It's unfortunate that there's no 'Mastery' equivalent stat that works on a job-specific basis.

This would be my wish tbh, just replace Tenacity with a Mastery stat that provides job specific benefits. It's pretty much the only stat I could see competing with Crit.

[Rithy255]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against tanks taking more damage in general. However, now we've moved from just redesigning Tencacity to changing encounters and potentially the tank role so this single stat can have some use, which is a bit more dev work.

I feel like that's the issue though... Like EW's state of non dps jobs aka supports, has really just been bad on both ends Healers should be having to make the choice to heal or damage not both at the same time, OGCD heals are Fine but they're way too over bloated as of current design that coupled with the lack of damage going through has made it so any utility a Job brings? Such as a raid wide or any sort of heal, doesn't matter anymore healers are hurt by this too by only spamming one button and not needing to manage heals.

This game needs to really consider healer design and support design in general going forward, I don't play tank because I want to play boring blue DPS, I like tank because it has a rotation with a lot of utility ect. It's also fun to just be tanky in general, I understand removing things like aggro management but at the same time Tanks shouldn't just become boring DPS either.

Creativity and Job design feels like it's gone on a downwards trend (to me) to make room for easier balance, instead of having a more interesting game for non dps roles. This links back to tenacity just being a awful stat as of current, but I don't think it would be in a good spot for the value it offers even if you fixed healers issues and tanks issues.

[Espon]

The idea of Tenacity isn't bad in itself, it's that this game is designed to not require it. Boss auto-attacks are weak and stop when the boss takes time to cast something, and tankbusters are infrequent enough that you'll always have a cooldown available. When a tank dies, it's always because they failed a mechanic and were instantly killed and not because they took too much damage and couldn't be healed in time.

I haven't played WoW since MoP but back when I did play defensive stats were extremely valuable, especially during progression. Every auto-attack was like a mini-tankbuster and a tank didn't have so many tools that they can survive a long time without heals. This also affected healers as they needed to spend most of the battle healing and rarely got a chance to do DPS since a short lapse in healing could easily cause the tank or even other raid members to die.

[Zairava]

I would prefer if we just ditched Tenacity/Piety if it meant we could get something equivalent to mastery from WoW (whether that's using Tenacity itself or named something else). More meld variety would be nice

[UkcsAlias]

I would just rework DH, Tenacity, and Piety to all increase DH, along with an additional role specific effect.

The problem here remains: if no dps is involved, you only need to reach a certain treshold value to make content beatable. Everything beyond that is better put in dps.
However: if dps is involved, the question becomes 'how much'. If it beats Crit/DH, then it becomes the primary meld, if not, Crit/DH still wins.

Idealy i would like it if both of these stats start to work like crit and dh, in which they scale non linear and boost each other further.

What if for example the crit/dh values are halved for healer/tanks by default, yet the piety and tenacity negate that reduction. So 100 crit becomes an effective 50. each 2 piety then adds 1 to that 50. This way it doesnt matter for damage whether crit or piety was used as the resulting value is always the same as long as piety stayed below crit. 100 crit and 100 piety grants 100 effective crit, while 200 crit and 0 piety would also grant that 100 crit. But now piety grants the extra effect with it, making it prefered. It can still make crit melding prefered if piety is the higher stat on the gear, but it now adds a more balanced distribution.

[Cabalabob]

In my eyes the issue is that there’s just too many dps increasing stats. You can only meld so much on to your gear and we have 3 damage stats in crit, DH and det. So unless you’re overmelding crafted gear and your job has no need for skill/spell speed you simply have no room for stats like tenacity and piety.

I think they need to reduce offensive stats down to one stat, say, lose crit and DH and just have determination. Then det can be the capped stat on the BIS pieces and it leaves you with room to play around with defensive stats for the secondary ones and melds.