What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Xirean]

Yes, I've said repeatedly that we time travel to Elpis. But my point is that, it doesn't make us part of the actual history. You can think that, I don't think that for all the reasons I've cited.

And I think every time someone "recognizes us" what they're reacting to is Azem. In the same way Hythlodeus does.

I guess I used the wrong wording. I meant we didn't exist in the past of Elpis as WoL, but rather Azem. As in the past PRE VISIT. The months, weeks, days, hours, seconds prior. We were Azem. We were likely Azem when we visited. That probably sounds confusing but I don't know how else to explain it. I'm referring to the time period. When we visit, the unsundered Azem wandering around but not shown, is actually us. We are there as well as WoL, so it's like we exist twice in the same space.

That's why Hythlodeus jumps on us for being a thinner Azem. Because we are.

You've essentially head cannoned the entirety of Elpis as a giant Echo vision. Fun fact that's actually very close to how I suggested it should have worked some 600ish pages ago. What you are describing is time viewing and not time travel though. By this logic you don't think we actually traveled to the past and instead just looked at it which is prove-ably false; some of that proof I already posted to prompt this specific tangent.

[Turtledeluxe]

You've essentially head cannoned the entirety of Elpis as a giant Echo vision. Fun fact that's actually very close to how I suggested it should have worked some 600ish pages ago. What you are describing is time viewing and not time travel though. By this logic you don't think we actually traveled to the past and instead just looked at it which is prove-ably false; some of that proof I already posted to prompt this specific tangent.

No I haven't. It's well understood that when you travel to a point in time where another version of you exists, it creates a temporal paradox. Which is why I believe the Elpis visit itself is supposed to be considered a deviated alternate timeline that essentially conjoins with the present mostly for fanservice effect (the Hydaelyn trial, the Emet pop up at the end m, the raids, etc). The WoL can interact with this timeline to essentially do things Azem would have thereotically done in the same time. That is the idea.

I have in no way denied the Crystal Tower allows for time travel, that we time traveled, etc. I've been talking about this for soooo many pages. You can believe the Elpis visit is a single timeline time loop..idc I don't believe that. And nothing you have proves it. The devs haven't confirmed it. Because the situation with Elpis bends the rules and they don't feel like explaining it.

And please don't repeat "but Argos, but Elidibus", because it doesn't refute what I am saying. Here is a similar take on reddit:

"I interpreted the Elpis loop as being us creating an alternate timeline like Graha, but where he stayed in the alternate timeline, we returned to ours.
Then Venat confirms the "convergence", where due to actions being carried out were so similar to the original past, that alternate timeline fused back into the main timeline, bringing its minor changes with it.

By this interpretation the events of history could have occurred without us, but Venat would not be aware of future events, nor have tracked Metion. History would have occurred how it was explained in SHB: Venat opposed the sheer destruction of life.

This interpretation also resolves the potential paradox of Graha's timeline where the WoL died before they could visit Elpis, yet history remained."

The only difference is they aren't concerned with a time paradox as the reason for the alternate timeline. They theorize its because it is too similar to the original timeline which, I'm not sure why. That's also why I originally called it a plot Mcguffin tho bc it's kind a joke. The reason doesn't matter-- the writers wanted to conjoin the Elpis visit to the MSQ so they did. That's the real reason. What you are thinking is that it didn't need to be conjoined beduase well, we time traveled and it's a time loop that is now history! I do not think that otherwise why would they bother so blatantly calling out the conjunction .. and this does not mean the visit itself is an echo view or a fever dream. It means it is a literal timeline, a pocket of time where we time traveled, that splintered off from the original timeline (aa the user i quoted explained) and conjoined to the present msq timeline bringing the "minor changes" (I wouldn't say they're minor but I mentioned them already).

[Xirean]

No I haven't. It's well understood that when you travel to a point in time where another version of you exists, it creates a temporal paradox. Which is why I believe the Elpis visit itself is supposed to be considered a deviated alternate timeline that essentially conjoins with the present mostly for fanservice effect (the Hydaelyn trial, the Emet pop up at the end m, the raids, etc). The WoL can interact with this timeline to essentially do things Azem would have thereotically done in the same time. That is the idea.

Where is it canonically stated that a paradox is created when you time travel within the universe of Final Fantasy XIV?

[Vahlnir]

Where is it canonically stated that a paradox is created when you time travel within the universe of Final Fantasy XIV?

They probably won't be able to answer that, because they (the writers) have not mentioned anything of the sort. The most that has been said in regard to time travel is that we should avoid discussing future events with the locals (like in Elpis) so that our future selves continue to exist. We ended up doing that anyway, and it changed absolutely nothing. It certainly didn't result in any sort of paradox. And the one person with the knowledge required to do anything ended up keeping it to herself, so...yeah. All of that said, the writers haven't really handled time travel very well in Endwalker, so I guess that does leave room for a lot of theories. The whole "convergence" thing that Hydaelyn talked about sort of...came out of nowhere, too. Nothing was changed, because she took it upon herself to keep things the way that they are presently. "Convergence" just sounds cooler I guess. In reality, all she did was guarantee that history was repeated.

[Turtledeluxe]

Where is it canonically stated that a paradox is created when you time travel within the universe of Final Fantasy XIV?

It isn't. I've already said that several times by excessively referring to my ideas as opinions. The devs haven't confirmed or denied but rather offered "maybes" and "form your own opinion on it". So that's what I did. And I'm not the only one...it is a very common idea.

But it's equally as common to take the WoL being in Elpis very literally when it really doesn't make any sense and creates all kinds of uncessary problems. I think you guys just like to complain personally.

And it defies reasoning in a way bc why then is Venat retelling us the entire sundering experience as though we don't know...the answer is..bc she isn't. Once we left her tineline our experience with her simply conjoined with the present day. The sundering abstraction we saw is the original sundering of a non aware Venat, obviously.

[Nayukhuut]

They probably won't be able to answer that, because they (the writers) have not mentioned anything of the sort. The most that has been said in regard to time travel is that we should avoid discussing future events with the locals (like in Elpis) so that our future selves continue to exist. We ended up doing that anyway, and it changed absolutely nothing. It certainly didn't result in any sort of paradox. And the one person with the knowledge required to do anything ended up keeping it to herself, so...yeah. All of that said, the writers haven't really handled time travel very well in Endwalker, so I guess that does leave room for a lot of theories. The whole "convergence" thing that Hydaelyn talked about sort of...came out of nowhere, too. Nothing was changed, because she took it upon herself to keep things the way that they are presently. "Convergence" just sounds cooler I guess. In reality, all she did was guarantee that history was repeated.

You know what is even more annoying with all that? Venat's dialogue near the end of Elpis even mentions that we might end up finding our world very different when we are speaking to her before we leave. It gave me hope that the Venat, this time, might have been able to find a better solution, and that perhaps maybe a splinter timeline could have existed where the Ancients got a chance. She mentions not giving up on her species, but then does exactly that. I get that one of them is just general character being hopeful stuff, but the part about maybe finding our world being different gave me some sort of hope that maybe we would find a secret pocket of Ancients or something. There was nothing though.

Edit: And yes, I get that both lines were just platitudes that meant nothing, but at the time I was still hoping that somehow all these people I had come to quite like would be given a chance, even if it wasn't in my timeline.

[Xirean]

It isn't. I've already said that several times by excessively referring to my ideas as opinions. The devs haven't confirmed or denied but rather offered "maybes" and "form your own opinion on it". So that's what I did. And I'm not the only one...it is a very common idea.

And that's different from headcanon how?

[Turtledeluxe]

And that's different from headcanon how?

The version of Venat you are painting does not officially exist either, I am sorry to tell you.

At least my interpretation of the events solves problems with the story vs creating frustrating illogical characters and situations thet make you think the writers have no idea what they are doing.

Most people liked and have moved on from 6.0 and I honestly find it depressing that there's still this topic about it up every week, haters hating bc strong woman did something I guess (idk what it is tbh). I don't buy that you're all still upset about an MSQ.

[Turtledeluxe]

You know what is even more annoying with all that? Venat's dialogue near the end of Elpis even mentions that we might end up finding our world very different when we are speaking to her before we leave. It gave me hope that the Venat, this time, might have been able to find a better solution, and that perhaps maybe a splinter timeline could have existed where the Ancients got a chance. She mentions not giving up on her species, but then does exactly that. I get that one of them is just general character being hopeful stuff, but the part about maybe finding our world being different gave me some sort of hope that maybe we would find a secret pocket of Ancients or something. There was nothing though.

Edit: And yes, I get that both lines were just platitudes that meant nothing, but at the time I was still hoping that somehow all these people I had come to quite like would be given a chance, even if it wasn't in my timeline.

Your ranting doesn't even make sense please stop. If you believe the Elpis visit is what actually happened pre 1.0 then if Venat tampered with the timeline as a result of the future info, it could theoretically destroy the future we exist in. This is why I keep thinking its trolling at this point because you can't seriously not understand this.

Since you have clearly dwelled on it for two years. Honestly what seems like platitudes is your post.

[Nayukhuut]

Your ranting doesn't even make sense please stop. If you believe the Elpis visit is what actually happened pre 1.0 then if Venat tampered with the timeline as a result of the future info, it could theoretically destroy the future we exist in. This is why I keep thinking its trolling at this point because you can't seriously not understand this.

Since you have clearly dwelled on it for two years.

I wasn't asking to destroy the timeline we were in, but I had been kinda hoping for a G'raha like scenario where the Venat we talked to when we went back in time actually found a solution other than the Sundering and there was some sort of weird timeline we would never see except maybe in a website side story (like G'raha's original timeline.).

That or a pocket of Ancients somewhere on one of the Shards could have been cool, but that will never/was never going to happen.

I assure you though, I am not a troll. Just someone who was saddened by the story in Endwalker after joining during Shadowbringers and loving it very much.