What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Xirean]

Quick question Turtle. Is the reason you refuse to see it as a true loop because it removes the genesis of the knowledge? You mentioned you prefer the idea that a Venat exists without the future hints. Does that mean you reject the idea that the game you played through could have contained future hints for Venat explicitly because you just think she didn't?

[Nayukhuut]

Don't give me hope that this happens. The moment it does then there no longer exist any reason to prevent the summoning/sundering by going back to Elpis. If they ever actually make multi timelines truly Canon then we better go back and fix that event.

Sadly, if/when we do go there it will prolly be just to back up that Venat was correct and and that the timeline went to rubble without her plan. I like your idea more, but I have seen how the writing has gone these past few patches. Heck, they wouldn't even let the Ancients live on in Ultima Thule, and we saved the rest of the supposedly doomed races there.

[Xirean]

-- As I've mentioned we were Azem...along with Ardbert and Golbez, and whoever is on the remaining reflections

Ok I really need you to explain why you keep sticking to the idea that the WoL is not in Elpis but is instead inhabiting Azem. We see the WoL travel to Elpis and appear as a mini ghost who then gets noticed by Hyth and Emit (noting the familiarity of the WoL's soul to that of Azem), enlarged & made solid, given clothes to better blend in despite everyone we talk to being able to instantly recognize as a familiar and specifically not "a person", compared to Meteion in regards to the lacking of aether, repeatedly badjured by Emet to explain who we are and what we are doing, and directly called out by Venat because she recognizes the ward on us.

Please help me understand what part of any of that allows for the non inclusion of literal time travel but also taking the place of any character besides the WoL and not Azem who is notably talked about as not being there by Venat, Hyth, and Emet.

[Xirean]

Sir do you not remember the words you type and what they mean?

I played the game where it's casually hinted at multiple times that we were Azem. It's not possible the WoL existed in Elpis-- they're a sundered being.

Do you understand that the WoL was very literally in Elpis or not? Bad writing or not aside, do you understand that the WoL canonically existed in Elpis for the duration of the Elpis MSQ as a direct result of actual canonical time travel?

You keep saying these random things and going off on tangents about them. Kindly please stop doing that.

[Xirean]

Yes, I've said repeatedly that we time travel to Elpis. But my point is that, it doesn't make us part of the actual history. You can think that, I don't think that for all the reasons I've cited.

And I think every time someone "recognizes us" what they're reacting to is Azem. In the same way Hythlodeus does.

I guess I used the wrong wording. I meant we didn't exist in the past of Elpis as WoL, but rather Azem. As in the past PRE VISIT. The months, weeks, days, hours, seconds prior. We were Azem. We were likely Azem when we visited. That probably sounds confusing but I don't know how else to explain it. I'm referring to the time period. When we visit, the unsundered Azem wandering around but not shown, is actually us. We are there as well as WoL, so it's like we exist twice in the same space.

That's why Hythlodeus jumps on us for being a thinner Azem. Because we are.

You've essentially head cannoned the entirety of Elpis as a giant Echo vision. Fun fact that's actually very close to how I suggested it should have worked some 600ish pages ago. What you are describing is time viewing and not time travel though. By this logic you don't think we actually traveled to the past and instead just looked at it which is prove-ably false; some of that proof I already posted to prompt this specific tangent.

[Xirean]

No I haven't. It's well understood that when you travel to a point in time where another version of you exists, it creates a temporal paradox. Which is why I believe the Elpis visit itself is supposed to be considered a deviated alternate timeline that essentially conjoins with the present mostly for fanservice effect (the Hydaelyn trial, the Emet pop up at the end m, the raids, etc). The WoL can interact with this timeline to essentially do things Azem would have thereotically done in the same time. That is the idea.

Where is it canonically stated that a paradox is created when you time travel within the universe of Final Fantasy XIV?

[Vahlnir]

Where is it canonically stated that a paradox is created when you time travel within the universe of Final Fantasy XIV?

They probably won't be able to answer that, because they (the writers) have not mentioned anything of the sort. The most that has been said in regard to time travel is that we should avoid discussing future events with the locals (like in Elpis) so that our future selves continue to exist. We ended up doing that anyway, and it changed absolutely nothing. It certainly didn't result in any sort of paradox. And the one person with the knowledge required to do anything ended up keeping it to herself, so...yeah. All of that said, the writers haven't really handled time travel very well in Endwalker, so I guess that does leave room for a lot of theories. The whole "convergence" thing that Hydaelyn talked about sort of...came out of nowhere, too. Nothing was changed, because she took it upon herself to keep things the way that they are presently. "Convergence" just sounds cooler I guess. In reality, all she did was guarantee that history was repeated.

[Nayukhuut]

They probably won't be able to answer that, because they (the writers) have not mentioned anything of the sort. The most that has been said in regard to time travel is that we should avoid discussing future events with the locals (like in Elpis) so that our future selves continue to exist. We ended up doing that anyway, and it changed absolutely nothing. It certainly didn't result in any sort of paradox. And the one person with the knowledge required to do anything ended up keeping it to herself, so...yeah. All of that said, the writers haven't really handled time travel very well in Endwalker, so I guess that does leave room for a lot of theories. The whole "convergence" thing that Hydaelyn talked about sort of...came out of nowhere, too. Nothing was changed, because she took it upon herself to keep things the way that they are presently. "Convergence" just sounds cooler I guess. In reality, all she did was guarantee that history was repeated.

You know what is even more annoying with all that? Venat's dialogue near the end of Elpis even mentions that we might end up finding our world very different when we are speaking to her before we leave. It gave me hope that the Venat, this time, might have been able to find a better solution, and that perhaps maybe a splinter timeline could have existed where the Ancients got a chance. She mentions not giving up on her species, but then does exactly that. I get that one of them is just general character being hopeful stuff, but the part about maybe finding our world being different gave me some sort of hope that maybe we would find a secret pocket of Ancients or something. There was nothing though.

Edit: And yes, I get that both lines were just platitudes that meant nothing, but at the time I was still hoping that somehow all these people I had come to quite like would be given a chance, even if it wasn't in my timeline.

[Xirean]

It isn't. I've already said that several times by excessively referring to my ideas as opinions. The devs haven't confirmed or denied but rather offered "maybes" and "form your own opinion on it". So that's what I did. And I'm not the only one...it is a very common idea.

And that's different from headcanon how?

[Turtledeluxe]

You know what is even more annoying with all that? Venat's dialogue near the end of Elpis even mentions that we might end up finding our world very different when we are speaking to her before we leave. It gave me hope that the Venat, this time, might have been able to find a better solution, and that perhaps maybe a splinter timeline could have existed where the Ancients got a chance. She mentions not giving up on her species, but then does exactly that. I get that one of them is just general character being hopeful stuff, but the part about maybe finding our world being different gave me some sort of hope that maybe we would find a secret pocket of Ancients or something. There was nothing though.

Edit: And yes, I get that both lines were just platitudes that meant nothing, but at the time I was still hoping that somehow all these people I had come to quite like would be given a chance, even if it wasn't in my timeline.

Your ranting doesn't even make sense please stop. If you believe the Elpis visit is what actually happened pre 1.0 then if Venat tampered with the timeline as a result of the future info, it could theoretically destroy the future we exist in. This is why I keep thinking its trolling at this point because you can't seriously not understand this.

Since you have clearly dwelled on it for two years. Honestly what seems like platitudes is your post.