Let's talk about the upcoming DRG rework...

[Valence]

Simple and complex jobs is a fluke of a concept.

The reality is that jobs have a starting point and an ending point. The first one is accessibility and the later is optimization. We've had in past expansions past ARR a lot of different job iterations, not necessarily more or less complex than today, with the real exception of DNC and new SMN that have literally zero ceiling. It didn't prevent every casual player in the game to pick the job they enjoyed and play it at whatever level they could. Accessibility however, has been a problem for multiple jobs, some having solved it or addressed it (MCH, even if it pains me to say so), and some having utterly failed at it repeatedly (BLM).

Having jobs that fall flat on either end of the spectrum is toxic for the game for many reasons.

[Rithy255]

Dragoons I'm sorry us Paladins can't shield you from the reworks any Longer, we took the full for yall in 6.3 remember us as your knights! HW and stuff.

Most likely gonna be bad, I'm more of a Astro player then dragoon but can't say im looking forward to either reworks lol. Maybe the job design will get better... most likely not.

[SomeGuy22]

On one hand, I'm positive that the rework is going to make jumps take more of a central role in its rotation. As much as I love playing DRG, I always found it weird that jump skills were mostly relegated to oGCDs to dump in burst windows.

On the other hand, I'm also positive that I'm going to despise actually playing it. I can't think of a single recent job rework that I liked, and I don't have confidence that this one is going to be any different

[Shurrikhan]

I myself am not a Dragoon player, but I want to ask you all a question, are you excited about the rework, or are you worried about the rework?

Worried.

If the reworks had had more success than losses, then I'd be less worried, but I still wouldn't be particularly excited. DRG is in a decent place already.

I'd be pretty happy with just having us enter any instance / reset with 2 eyes and Dragon Sight was made more Dance Partner-ish (cloning Lance Charge to them at half effect and duration while guaranteeing positionals for the both of you). Maybe a 3rd scale.

Wouldn't hate Mirage Dive again replacing Jump but Geirskogul being a separate button from Nostrand (which would now be what activates Life of the Dragon, atop allowing 2 more uses of Nastrond before it ends), as not to cause Geirskogul drift or prevent its use in ill timings, but neither do I think that'd be an improvement, per se.
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That all being said, here's a random-ass mockup of what a change might look like, in the style of "Slightly more control, not quite as immediately obvious and more open to nuance (higher ceiling), while taking up fewer buttons and avoiding what little clunk or bloat remains to DRG".

• All 3 of the original "combos" now feed into each other, using shared "Stages" akin to Monk's "Forms"; even the likes of Doom Spike -> Disembowel -> Full Thrust are technically an option.
• All weaponskills consolidated into just 5 buttons, referred to as Thrust, Drive, Rush, Dragon, and Throw.
• Thrust includes True Thrust/Raiden Thrust, Double Thrust (new skill), and Full Thrust;
• Drive includes Impulse Drive, Sundering Drive (just renamed), and Chaos Drive (renamed from Chaos Thrust);
• Rush includes Doom Spike/Draconian Fury, Sonic Thrust, and Coerthan Torment;
• Dragon includes Fang and Claw, Wheeling Wing (now with some radial AoE fall-off damage), and Tail and Maw (a new linear AoE);
• Throw includes Piercing Talon, Dragonkiller, and Wyrmwind.

• Fang and Claw will always be generated by a Thrust skill;
• Wheeling Wing will always be generated by a 3rd-stage Drive skill;
• Tail and Maw will always be generated by a 3rd-stage Rush skill.
• Blood of Dragons (replacing "Lance Mastery") allows you to follow up a Dragon skill with the ones used previously, if they differ.

• E.g., if I open with Chaos Thrust -> Wheeling Wing, I can then use Full Thrust -> Fang and Claw -> Wheeling Wing. And if I were to end a combo with a Rush skill after that, I could even go Torment -> Tail and Maw -> Fang and Claw -> Wheeling Wing, though I'd have to start recycling after that. Generally, this just means cycling Thrust endings with Drive endings, as before, outside of cleave situations.

• True Thrust animation slightly revised. Reach slightly increased.
• Impulse Drive now has a short gap-closer attached.
• Doom Spike now charges forward after a short delay if moving forward while using it (amplifies movement in the player-facing direction, stored and released at end).
  
  
• All AoE weaponskill damage increased against their first target struck.
• Dragon skill unlocks are no longer cancelled by using any other actions; you can start a new combo before activating them.
• Fang and Claw now strikes twice, each time dealing reduced AoE damage in a short line of attack, and duplicates a portion of the previous attack's effect to the first target struck each time. Reduced durations cloned in this way may stack up to the original affliction's duration.
• Wheeling Thrust now strikes twice, one attack of which deals radial AoE damage, and duplicates a portion of the previous attack's effect, split among targets struck. Reduced durations cloned in this way may stack up to the original affliction's duration.
  
  
• Disembowel now increases your physical damage dealt to the target by 10%, but no longer has any effect on magical damage. DRG's magical damage has been increased. DRG's AoE damage has been increased to compensate.
• Double Thrust (formerly Vorpal Thrust) now strikes twice to cause a 21s DoT that consumes a second of duration for each strike landed against the target, dealing that (portion of a) tick's damage instantly. Uses the old Phlebotomize animation.
• Chaos Drive now strikes 4 times. Its duration has also been increased from 24 to 27 seconds, to better make room for the occasional Jump GCDs.
• Coerthan Tempest now strikes 4 times.
• Sonic Thrust now strikes 7 times.

• The idea here is that you'd want to intermix the different combo lines and may want to disperse and/or extend your debuffs smartly via alternating Fang and Claw (the best for 2 or fewer targets) and Wheeling Fang casts (the best for 3+ targets).

• Spineshatter Dive, Dragonfire Dive, and Stardiver removed as separate abilities, consolidated into dynamic actions under Jump.
• Jump no longer has a CD. Instead, it simply costs a % of current MP, to a minimum of 1000 MP, and sends you up into the air, at which point you can again spend varying MP on any of various Jump-based replacements for / upgrades to your next Thrust, Drive, Rush, or Dragon skills. These are gradually unlocked over the time spent leveling.

• Spineshatter Dive is the replacement for True Thrust, for instance (low MP cost, includes a no-DR stun and a brief increase to movement speed), Dragonfire Dive (higher MP cost) is the replacement for Drive, Divebomb (new) replaces Rush, and Stardiver eventually replaces Dragon.

• The more MP consumed (from using Jump and the accordant skill at higher %MP), the greater the potency added to your Jump attack.
• Your combo finishers and Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust each generate 500* MP (exact value TBR).
• Each among the different types of Jump, except Spineshatter Dive, double their MP costs after using, with that resultant MP cost fading back to normal over roughly half their original CDs. In short, you still proportion them basically as before, but there's some added flexibility and a bit more individual strength in exchange for not being able to use all of them back-to-back under burst due to the partially shared resource costs.
  
  
  
• Power Surge now replaces Life Surge in terms of function, increasing the effect of your next attack by 50%. It consumes 2000* (exact value TBR) MP, doubling after use but declining back to its original MP cost over 20 GCDs. While it does slightly drain from your use of Jump skills, it is nonetheless worth using basically on cooldown. The added MP generation for Jumps relative to the old Jump/SSD/DFD frequencies make up for this.
• Life Surge is now a situational tool, inflicting the target with a debuff that causes individual hits against the victim within the next 15 seconds to heal their attacker for a small amount. Players at full health do not activate or consume these stacks. It, too, costs 2000* MP (exact value TBR), doubling after use but declining back to its original MP cost over 30 GCDs.
• Together, these Surge skills make up the bulk of the original Lancer's flexible burst and utility.
  
  
• Blood of the Dragon returns as a separate ability. Each Jump skill generates gauge based on potency of damage dealt, accumulating to a maximum of 30. Wheeling Thrust and Fang and Claw also each generate a point of gauge.
• Entering Blood of the Dragon increases your attack and movement speeds by 15% and triples the cooling speed of Geirskogul while draining 1 point of gauge up to an additional 10 gauge per Geirskogul accelerated in this manner.
• You enter instances with 20 gauge.
  
  
• For every 30 gauge spent, you gain an Eye. Progress is tracked by a flaming border graphic along the bottom of the gauge.
• You can spend each Eye on Mirage Dive (no CD, big oGCD hit) or on Dragon Sight (80s CD, which would presently mean effectively a 120s CD, but faintly more flexible, your crits increase ally's crit chance and theirs increases yours, while you are each able to position to secure the other's positionals, too).
• Once two eyes are spent, Blood of the Dragon becomes Life of the Dragon, which additionally offers Nostrand instead of Geirskogul and unlocks Stardiver.
  
  
• Lance Charge increased to a 15% damage buff.
• Dragon Sight now works akin to marking a Dance Partner, and causes you to share positionals (if they're at your target's Rear and you use a Rear attack, it succeeds regardless of where you are, and vice versa) while granting them a third of the benefit of your Lance Charge.

[Shurrikhan]

To be fair, this is a triple edged sword.

A lot of people say about healers and even SMN that they like them how they are, too.

I do agree, though, with the premise that not all Jobs are for everyone. I just wish the people who like complex Jobs and say that to defend BLM, DRG, AST, etc would also realize that the reverse of that exists on the opposite end of the spectrum.

The differences between what is allowed to someone who wants to engage only with a smaller kit when given a larger kit (is almost never seen as griefing, since the optimizations already available even to a simpler job dwarf the differences between the use of those marginal tools) and what is allowed to someone who wants to engage with a larger kit when given only a smaller kit (literally impossible) are night and day, however.

To pretend otherwise is beyond disingenuous, as it replaces all concerns of balance and what little is actually expected of players in the relevant portions of content* with a matter of placating near-paranoia (that the GCD healer would suddenly be "found out", to heated or even disastrous result, if only they had those few more spells that were technically worth adding into the mix).

*(I.e., less than Ultimate / anything for which having a lower-risk option share a ceiling with others and therefore outperform others except when handled by the best of players would not wreck perceived job balance.)

[Renathras]

The differences between what is allowed to someone who wants to engage only with a smaller kit when given a larger kit (is almost never seen as griefing, since the optimizations already available even to a simpler job dwarf the differences between the use of those marginal tools) and what is allowed to someone who wants to engage with a larger kit when given only a smaller kit (literally impossible) are night and day, however.

This highly depends on what it is.

On SCH, if you never use Dissipation and seldom use Energy Drain, the difference is not so huge that you're grifing your party. On MNK, if you don't engage with the Nadi system at all (e.g. never use Masterful Blitz), you ARE kind of griefing the party and your output difference is significant enough to potentially make beating enrages difficult or impossible for your party.

Some distinctions are small enough that the outcome is effectively the same, even if not exactly the same. But others are big enough gulfs that they cease to be "optimal" in truth.

If one accepts that some Jobs like BLM, DRG, AST, etc should exist, then it stands to reason that one should accept the inverse as well.

To pretend otherwise is beyond disingenuous, as it replaces all concerns of balance and appeal to a general playerbase with a closed set of very limited options that is only appealing to a niche audience which cannot carry a game, and which will still choose to meta/min-max even from a more limited pool of options.

[Shurrikhan]

If one accepts that some Jobs like BLM, DRG, AST, etc should exist, then it stands to reason that one should accept the inverse as well.

I'm not particularly sure what you're implying connects all these things (the most recent mention was a non-negligible gimmick, but MNK's Nadi itself generates only the difference between a trio of blitzes as Lunar spam (less than 4% of damage), but will the jobs that are to have the "inverse" of whatever quality that is also have the "inverse" of that quality's commensurate output?

To pretend otherwise is beyond disingenuous, as it replaces all concerns of balance and appeal to a general playerbase with a closed set of very limited options that is only appealing to a niche audience which cannot carry a game, and which will still choose to meta/min-max even from a more limited pool of options.

Literally More Gameplay/Options: ...
Renathras: But to min-max, as I was never going to do anyways, I might have to use them, which reduces my options of what not to use!

[Reimmi]

My main dps is drg/reaper, and i am not looking forward to it at all.
Expecting summoner level braindead changes, hoping for monk though...

[Palladiamors]

My sympathies to the DRG mains if this goes the way I think it will. On top of losing most of your job you're going to be hit with a flood of people telling you how they play dragoon now and it's great. Insult to injury.

[Imragarn]

DRG main here

I only have one thing to say : "Ruin has come to our family !"