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  1. #1
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Dec 2014
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    2,747
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    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Halivel View Post
    He's not wrong tho. We can occasionally get morally grey villains or supporting characters, but a morally grey protagonist is a rarity.
    Off the top of my head:

    Deadpool
    Punisher
    Venom (in some incarnations)
    Ben Solo (we all knew it was coming)
    Emet-Selch (and arguably all the Ascians other than maybe Fandaniel) - and he WAS treated as morally gray and not outright condemned (the climax of the story we make peace with him; then do again an expansion later)
    Batman (yes, he doesn't kill, but part of his character is that he doesn't stand on the light side of the law)
    A good chunk of the Marvel cast after The Snap, and half of them after Winter Soldier
    Vegeta
    Terminator (in T2 and T3)
    Benjamin Sisko (DS9) - honestly, most of the Star Trek captains other than Picard.
    Thanos himself was portrayed as "maybe he's right, but we don't like it", just like Emet.

    That's just off the top of my head without actually thinking. I can easily expand this list.

    Morally gray characters are more commonplace now than "true good" characters are. I can't really think of any true good main characters these days. Most are faulty in various ways, even if they're overall benevolent, and many of them come from older stories before the "subverting expectations" cliche became common, like the LotR characters (though even many of those outside of the core cast were not "true good", such as Boramir) which are from a book series written 60-80 years ago.

    I do agree that a lot are anti-heroes, but quite a few are not and are the main characters and not portrayed as villains. Batman is often treated as more good than Superman, even, despite being on the shady side of things, and the moral heart of the Justice League. And many of the villains, like Emet, have their motivations explored to kind of give them a "maybe they're wrong, but they're wrong for the right reasons/circumstance and things that happened to them shaped them into what they were."

    Honestly, Venat is in the Emet boat of "imperfect being trying to do what's right and choose the best of all bad options".

    .

    I think it's more common than you think. But it's common enough it's become the expectation rather than subverting it.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    Absimiliard's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    Cassius Rex
    World
    Louisoix
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Off the top of my head:

    Deadpool
    Punisher
    Venom (in some incarnations)
    Ben Solo (we all knew it was coming)
    Emet-Selch (and arguably all the Ascians other than maybe Fandaniel) - and he WAS treated as morally gray and not outright condemned (the climax of the story we make peace with him; then do again an expansion later)
    Batman (yes, he doesn't kill, but part of his character is that he doesn't stand on the light side of the law)
    A good chunk of the Marvel cast after The Snap, and half of them after Winter Soldier
    Vegeta
    Terminator (in T2 and T3)
    Benjamin Sisko (DS9) - honestly, most of the Star Trek captains other than Picard.
    Thanos himself was portrayed as "maybe he's right, but we don't like it", just like Emet.
    - Deadpool is nine times out of ten shown doing the right thing, and he'll probably get a pass when he doesn't if it's in one of his own comics.
    - The Punisher is very much on the dark side of that scale in most stories, and his actions are addressed as such despite all the good they do. He's just a psychopath that preys on its own.
    - Venom has fluctuated between anti-hero and villain for his entire existence, but his actions are nearly always portrayed as evil regardless of the potential benefits they may have.
    - Ben Solo was well aware what he was doing was wrong but chose to keep doing it anyway. He butchered loads of innocent people. He then proceeded to get a pass after his five-minute redemption arc.
    - Emet-Selch is condemned repeatedly in-universe for his actions. I do tend agree with the assessment of him falling under the umbrella of people who tried to make the best of a crap situation even if the story doesn't really try to paint him in that light.
    - Batman is treated in-universe as a force of good nine times out of ten. Additionally, I would note lawful and good are not the same thing. One need not operate within the law to be a force for good.
    - Most of Marvel's heroic cast were left broken after failing to prevent the snap, but they very much stuck to their roots. Only two of them really went off the rails, and both wound up getting back in line by the end.
    - Vegeta is a genuinely good person, husband, and father by the time of Super. He is everything a fair portion of the fandom mistakenly believes Goku's selfish ass to be. His journey from one side of the spectrum to the other was fantastic.
    - T2's T-800's complete lack of morality is called out infrequently, and we see it gradually become more human through its interactions with John. None the less, within the context of that franchise it is considered a purely heroic figure. I would also note the T-800 is not in fact the protagonist of Terminator 2; John Connor is.
    - T3's T-850 never really overcomes its programming. Everything it does, from avoiding civilian casualties to protecting John and Katherine, is a result of its defined mission parameters. It would have been perfectly willing to mass slaughter random bystanders if that had somehow been required for the mission. The story treats it as a heroic figure. As with the prior example, the terminator was not the movie's protagonist. That role was again John Connor's.
    - Thanos only received the benefit of the "maybe he's got a point" half this equation. Both versions of him were treated purely as villainous by the story.
    (6)
    Last edited by Absimiliard; 10-13-2023 at 11:53 AM.