Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Deceptus]

it's completely unreasonable for a tank to also be capable of healing the party because that spits in the face of the trinity. be able to fully solo an 8 man boss while the content is current

FTFY

I think this is fair. I don't play healers but I am interpreting this to mean you want some sort of mechanic (ie BLM Enochian or Reaper Enshroud) to spice up the rotation of WHM? On the other hand I would say I'm sure the devs are hesitant to give healers too much to do as it could actually get in the way of healing. So they would need to tread carefully as such.

A lot of healers have accepted the fact that CBU3 refuses to give us decent dps options / rotations because "It'd be too hard for players" despite tanks having them. We heal about as much as tanks mitigate anymore

So in the downtime we have requested buffing / debuffing roles

Personally I have advocated for Protect / Shell / Faith / Bravery / Haste to appear etc etc. All Final Fantasy staples

And that heal on Shake it Off? Wtf was even the point of adding that? WAR was the last job they needed to add more healing to. I for one thoroughly enjoy WAR in its present state, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why that particular change seemed a good idea.

CBU3 added a poison to most AoE's this expansion and apparently they don't trust healers to do their jobs so tanks / DNC / SMN / RPR get to do it.

If Healers aren't DPS, and thus should not receive DPS abilities, then why isn't that logic applied to tanks as well? They get new DPS abilities every expansion and they aren't DPS. Why don't they just get an obligatory upgrade to their basic combo buttons and get 2 or 3 new defensive cooldowns instead?

Nah, give tanks: a single attack button that generates high aggro, a single dot that generates high aggro, a single aoe and 8-10 mitigations they'll hardly ever use. Let's see how long they last before they start quitting the role out of boredom.

[Wim]

playing 4 job tanks now feels like it's all the same

[Absurdity]

Nah, give tanks: a single attack button that generates high aggro, a single dot that generates high aggro, a single aoe and 8-10 mitigations they'll hardly ever use. Let's see how long they last before they start quitting the role out of boredom.

The role is already incredibly boring with the current kits, you don't even need to reduce them to the insult that is healer gameplay. But I guess it would help with shining more light on an issue they've refused to address for 4 years now.

[Turtledeluxe]

FTFY



A lot of healers have accepted the fact that CBU3 refuses to give us decent dps options / rotations because "It'd be too hard for players" despite tanks having them. We heal about as much as tanks mitigate anymore

So in the downtime we have requested buffing / debuffing roles

Personally I have advocated for Protect / Shell / Faith / Bravery / Haste to appear etc etc. All Final Fantasy staples



CBU3 added a poison to most AoE's this expansion and apparently they don't trust healers to do their jobs so tanks / DNC / SMN / RPR get to do it.



Nah, give tanks: a single attack button that generates high aggro, a single dot that generates high aggro, a single aoe and 8-10 mitigations they'll hardly ever use. Let's see how long they last before they start quitting the role out of boredom.

If we give healers more buffing/debuffung wouldn't that tread on DNC and BRD and their future growth? If we continue going in the direction of "trinity is dead let all classes have everything" job identity becomes cosmetic.

This is why I think a lot of Job discussion needs to be directed to what fights in general are demanding and how the dev team can breath new life into combat in general without focusing purely on difficulty or changing up job reaponsibilities. I'm not talking about fights needing more wipes but rather fights that have some kind of challenge aside from finding a safe spot or killing mobs. Maybe that requires entirely new types of bosses.

Let's say we do give healers buffs like protect and haste-- so the non threatening content becomes even more so and the zerg becomes more effective because spell speed and attack speed are hastened. In the current paradigm I don't think that serves us outside maybe savage and Ultimates. In casual content most things that hit you already afford you so much leeway before KO that protect and shell feel like overkill. Addle and Poison already exist in the game. Giving all these things to new classes is putting a bandaid on a bigger problem imo. Once again if we are continuing on this train of "f the trinity" plus the 2 minute meta then that demands more variety in the combat imo. With so many other new games out expanding on the traditional boss fight and design, it's crazy to me that XIV just kind of settles and tells you "well there's a tiny % of content that's engaging but you need a static etc to do it". And let's be honest those fights aren't necessarily innovative as much as they are iust all the mechanics of the game turned up to 11 and accelerated.

Isn't this part of why people enjoy the exploratory zones for example-- Eureka in particular verges on being an entirely different game, in a good way imo.

[MintnHoney]

If we give healers more buffing/debuffung wouldn't that tread on DNC and BRD and their future growth? If we continue going in the direction of "trinity is dead let all classes have everything" job identity becomes cosmetic.

I think it's important to note that, when DNC was being introduced, many jobs (particularly AST and BRD) lost many buffs and debuffs that created "synergies" because, as YoshiP described, DNC was going to be the job that offered "synergy" as an identity. So, actually, it was DNC who did the "treading" in the first place.

With that in mind, buffing and debuffing are not currently exclusive to DNC and BRD anyway, as most jobs have their own sets of buffs and debuffs. The knee-jerk reaction you had regarding healers possibly getting anything that isn't just more healing spells being an absolute problem just kind of shows how undervalued the actual Healer player is, because the role itself is not allowed to have that variation in their gameplay like every other job in the game simply due to concerns over the healer possibly making a mistake, or the player being initially incapable of healing through those times where one just couldn't (or otherwise chooses not to) avoid damage without some practice.
For any other job, in any other role, having little to do and lacking gameplay variation would be tragic. Mistakes are inevitable, but expected and okay!
But for healers: nah. Gotta keep the fun rolling for the rest of the party, so the healer can't be allowed to do anything else, just in case they need to press the sparkle button later.

And now I miss Semhirage.

Also, regarding job identity: it wouldn't necessarily suffer if "the trinity" suffers or even dies, but, given my prior observation/opinion/statement, I think it'd be fair to say that job identity suffers due to "the trinity." This is especially true when suddenly (as is the case for healers, apparently) trying to strictly adhere to the "roles."

[Turtledeluxe]

I think it's important to note that, when DNC was being introduced, many jobs (particularly AST and BRD) lost many buffs and debuffs that created "synergies" because, as YoshiP described, DNC was going to be the job that offered "synergy" as an identity. So, actually, it was DNC who did the "treading" in the first place.

With that in mind, buffing and debuffing are not currently exclusive to DNC and BRD anyway, as most jobs have their own sets of buffs and debuffs. The knee-jerk reaction you had regarding healers possibly getting anything that isn't just more healing spells being an absolute problem just kind of shows how undervalued the actual Healer player is, because the role itself is not allowed to have that variation in their gameplay like every other job in the game simply due to concerns over the healer possibly making a mistake, or the player being initially incapable of healing through those times where one just couldn't (or otherwise chooses not to) avoid damage without some practice.
For any other job, in any other role, having little to do and lacking gameplay variation would be tragic. Mistakes are inevitable, but expected and okay!

Also, regarding job identity: it wouldn't necessarily suffer if "the trinity" suffers or even dies, but, given my prior observation/opinion/statement, I think it'd be fair to say that job identity suffers due to "the trinity." This is especially true when suddenly (as is the case for healers, apparently) trying to strictly adhere to the "roles."

It's not really a knee jerk reaction-- it's a question about whether it continues sending us in the same direction. Your answer here is well everyone has it, healers had it before, and the trinity is to blame because it's impossible to be creative with the role outside dissolving boundaries between classes. Many classes have it but to varying degrees. Some people in the thread are suggesting tying it into the rotation to increase the skill ceiling and that, imo, is what's questionable. That's not how it "used to be". If the requests from healers is to make things how they "used to be" that is different from saying "give us something to do when we aren't healing". I actually didn't say not to do it I said there's a lack of progress in this area because it's tricky. I don't buy the argument that devs cannot be creative with class roles and it necessitates all classes being able to do everything. I'm not even calling for strict role adherence, I'm saying the job design in this game is just muddled.

[Deceptus]

If we give healers more buffing/debuffung wouldn't that tread on DNC and BRD and their future growth? If we continue going in the direction of "trinity is dead let all classes have everything" job identity becomes cosmetic.

If you want to be a dps, focus on dps.

Let the actions that affect HP values be the healer's concern.

The fact that every job can do every single thing is what got us here in the first place and healers are being actively shelved because of it.

The "trinity" is dead because tanks can heal themselves and the party, the dps can heal themselves and the party as well as mitigate, and healers can bring meager dps and way too much healing that isn't needed.

[Absimiliard]

Let the actions that affect HP values be the healer's concern.

The "trinity" is dead because tanks can heal themselves and the party, the dps can heal themselves and the party as well as mitigate, and healers can bring meager dps and way too much healing that isn't needed.

Tank healing is so good in part because of how fights are designed lately. More often than not, the timing and amount of incoming damage is such that tanks will be able to keep themselves and others up reasonably well. A better solution than ruining the fun of tanks (and yes, the extreme survivability they have now is easily one of their most appealing qualities) would be to simply increase mandatory damage to the point tank cooldowns are no longer sufficient to maintain both themselves and others. In other words, you engineer situations where tanks are forced to focus on keeping themselves up. This in turn would leave DPS at the mercy of healers.

The lion's share of healers would be satisfied with a few more damage buttons for themselves and actually having to heal, no? Tanks get to continue being a one-man army, healers finally have a job to do, and DPS ... well, DPS really wouldn't notice a difference I don't think. Aside from maybe being a lot more likely to die if they're stuck with a bad healer.

[Aravell]

Tank healing is so good in part because of how fights are designed lately. More often than not, the timing and amount of incoming damage is such that tanks will be able to keep themselves and others up reasonably well. A better solution than ruining the fun of tanks (and yes, the extreme survivability they have now is easily one of their most appealing qualities) would be to simply increase mandatory damage to the point tank cooldowns are no longer sufficient to maintain both themselves and others. In other words, you engineer situations where tanks are forced to focus on keeping themselves up. This in turn would leave DPS at the mercy of healers.

The lion's share of healers would be satisfied with a few more damage buttons for themselves and actually having to heal, no? Tanks get to continue being a one-man army, healers finally have a job to do, and DPS ... well, DPS really wouldn't notice a difference I don't think. Aside from maybe being a lot more likely to die if they're stuck with a bad healer.

Why should tanks get to have fun at the expense of healers? Why even have a trinity at that point if tanks can spit on it and solo everything? Tank sustain absolutely needs to be reduced.

[Absimiliard]

Why should tanks get to have fun at the expense of healers? Why even have a trinity at that point if tanks can spit on it and solo everything? Tank sustain absolutely needs to be reduced.

For one, tanks can't solo everything. I'm not certain where people got the idea they could, but there's plenty of stuff they can't. Seeing a YouTube video of a single player managing to solo something absurd after probably hundreds of prior attempts does not mean everyone can do it, just as seeing an all-tank clear of an Ultimate doesn't mean every raid team could do it. Judging the state of a game by what the top 1% can pull off is how we got where we are now in the first place.

The above aside, how exactly is a tank rarely needing healing affecting your fun as a healer if fight design is changed in such a way that you are frequently required to heal the DPS? You're still getting to heal. You just aren't having to heal the tank all that often.

I've also thought about this though I am not a support main, but I was wondering if the stat design had something to do with this. Because I see so many tanks try to avoid Tenacity for Crit, DET, or DH, and yet they are just as surviveable and tanky with or without them. There's doesn't seem to be a sacrifice of surviveability for damage, so it feels kind of pointless.

Damage optimization has pretty much always been the go-to for every role in this game. In the old days tanks would run crafted DPS accessories to milk more DPS. We kept melding for damage even once that option was taken away. This behavior actually did come at the expense of survivability at the time, but we kept engaging in it anyway. Healers complained; changes were made. SE realized fairly quickly nothing they did was going to stop us optimizing for damage, so they started leaning into it instead of away from it. They also started trying to narrow the skill gap between the really good tanks and the shoddy ones, and stances were one of the casualties.

The same was once true of healers. Cleric stance was their bread and butter, and it only got turned off if something went off the rails.

tl;dr: the whole game is rocket tag