Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Deceptus]

If we give healers more buffing/debuffung wouldn't that tread on DNC and BRD and their future growth? If we continue going in the direction of "trinity is dead let all classes have everything" job identity becomes cosmetic.

If you want to be a dps, focus on dps.

Let the actions that affect HP values be the healer's concern.

The fact that every job can do every single thing is what got us here in the first place and healers are being actively shelved because of it.

The "trinity" is dead because tanks can heal themselves and the party, the dps can heal themselves and the party as well as mitigate, and healers can bring meager dps and way too much healing that isn't needed.

[Absimiliard]

Let the actions that affect HP values be the healer's concern.

The "trinity" is dead because tanks can heal themselves and the party, the dps can heal themselves and the party as well as mitigate, and healers can bring meager dps and way too much healing that isn't needed.

Tank healing is so good in part because of how fights are designed lately. More often than not, the timing and amount of incoming damage is such that tanks will be able to keep themselves and others up reasonably well. A better solution than ruining the fun of tanks (and yes, the extreme survivability they have now is easily one of their most appealing qualities) would be to simply increase mandatory damage to the point tank cooldowns are no longer sufficient to maintain both themselves and others. In other words, you engineer situations where tanks are forced to focus on keeping themselves up. This in turn would leave DPS at the mercy of healers.

The lion's share of healers would be satisfied with a few more damage buttons for themselves and actually having to heal, no? Tanks get to continue being a one-man army, healers finally have a job to do, and DPS ... well, DPS really wouldn't notice a difference I don't think. Aside from maybe being a lot more likely to die if they're stuck with a bad healer.

[Aravell]

Tank healing is so good in part because of how fights are designed lately. More often than not, the timing and amount of incoming damage is such that tanks will be able to keep themselves and others up reasonably well. A better solution than ruining the fun of tanks (and yes, the extreme survivability they have now is easily one of their most appealing qualities) would be to simply increase mandatory damage to the point tank cooldowns are no longer sufficient to maintain both themselves and others. In other words, you engineer situations where tanks are forced to focus on keeping themselves up. This in turn would leave DPS at the mercy of healers.

The lion's share of healers would be satisfied with a few more damage buttons for themselves and actually having to heal, no? Tanks get to continue being a one-man army, healers finally have a job to do, and DPS ... well, DPS really wouldn't notice a difference I don't think. Aside from maybe being a lot more likely to die if they're stuck with a bad healer.

Why should tanks get to have fun at the expense of healers? Why even have a trinity at that point if tanks can spit on it and solo everything? Tank sustain absolutely needs to be reduced.

[Absimiliard]

Why should tanks get to have fun at the expense of healers? Why even have a trinity at that point if tanks can spit on it and solo everything? Tank sustain absolutely needs to be reduced.

For one, tanks can't solo everything. I'm not certain where people got the idea they could, but there's plenty of stuff they can't. Seeing a YouTube video of a single player managing to solo something absurd after probably hundreds of prior attempts does not mean everyone can do it, just as seeing an all-tank clear of an Ultimate doesn't mean every raid team could do it. Judging the state of a game by what the top 1% can pull off is how we got where we are now in the first place.

The above aside, how exactly is a tank rarely needing healing affecting your fun as a healer if fight design is changed in such a way that you are frequently required to heal the DPS? You're still getting to heal. You just aren't having to heal the tank all that often.

I've also thought about this though I am not a support main, but I was wondering if the stat design had something to do with this. Because I see so many tanks try to avoid Tenacity for Crit, DET, or DH, and yet they are just as surviveable and tanky with or without them. There's doesn't seem to be a sacrifice of surviveability for damage, so it feels kind of pointless.

Damage optimization has pretty much always been the go-to for every role in this game. In the old days tanks would run crafted DPS accessories to milk more DPS. We kept melding for damage even once that option was taken away. This behavior actually did come at the expense of survivability at the time, but we kept engaging in it anyway. Healers complained; changes were made. SE realized fairly quickly nothing they did was going to stop us optimizing for damage, so they started leaning into it instead of away from it. They also started trying to narrow the skill gap between the really good tanks and the shoddy ones, and stances were one of the casualties.

The same was once true of healers. Cleric stance was their bread and butter, and it only got turned off if something went off the rails.

tl;dr: the whole game is rocket tag

[Volgia]

For one, tanks can't solo everything. I'm not certain where people got the idea they could, but there's plenty of stuff they can't. Seeing a YouTube video of a single player managing to solo something absurd after probably hundreds of prior attempts does not mean everyone can do it, just as seeing an all-tank clear of an Ultimate doesn't mean every raid team could do it. Judging the state of a game by what the top 1% can pull off is how we got where we are now in the first place.

The above aside, how exactly is a tank rarely needing healing affecting your fun as a healer if fight design is changed in such a way that you are frequently required to heal the DPS? You're still getting to heal. You just aren't having to heal the tank all that often.



Damage optimization has pretty much always been the go-to for role in this game. In the old days tanks would run crafted DPS accessories to milk more DPS. We kept melding for damage even once that option was taken away. This behavior actually did come at the expense of survivability at the time, but we kept engaging in it anyway. Healers complained; changes were made. SE realized fairly quickly nothing they did was going to stop us optimizing for damage, so they started leaning into it instead of away from it.

The same was once true of healers. Cleric stance was their bread and butter, and it only got turned off if something went off the rails.

tl;dr: the whole game is rocket tag.

I see. So it was harder to play with a more damaging tank, until it became so meta the devs had to make a change to make it this way? I liked the idea that it came at the expense of survivability/less healing, it sounds like you needed a bit more skill and planning to pull it off, but I wasn't there when this was a thing so I wouldn't know how postiive or negative this had on hard content.

[Absimiliard]

I see. So it was harder to play with a more damaging tank, until it became so meta the devs had to make a change to make it this way? I liked the idea that it came at the expense of survivability/less healing, it sounds like you needed a bit more skill and planning to pull it off, but I wasn't there when this was a thing so I wouldn't know how postiive or negative this had on hard content.

Tanks had very limited healing at the time, although their damage was higher compared to the actual DPS than it is now.

Positive or negative didn't really matter to us. We were only interested in getting fights down as quickly and efficiently as possible. As is the norm, this behavior eventually trickled down to the entire player-base. Now just about everyone really only cares about damage numbers. Some groups don't even care about correctly resolving mechanics so long as it doesn't kill anyone/lower their numbers.

[Aravell]

The above aside, how exactly is a tank rarely needing healing affecting your fun as a healer if fight design is changed in such a way that you are frequently required to heal the DPS? You're still getting to heal. You just aren't having to heal the tank all that often.

Tank healing used to be a major source of healing required in the older expansions, your reasoning behind asking for this is so you, as a tank, are in no danger of ever dying. You're basically pushing the risk of dying onto the squishy dps because you can't be bothered to rely on the healer.

As for your question, a tank rarely requiring healing means single target regen effects are basically worthless. If you're pushing the healing requirements onto the squishies, that means burst heals are the only thing that work, dps also have limited defence values and limited HP pools, there is a small limit of how much can be stressed on the dps side. Tanks, on the other hand, can be stretched out much further. Sure, you can keep your broken self-sustain, but bosses need to bring back untelegraphed tank cleaves and crit autos, then you'll actually have a reason to have those tools.

[Absimiliard]

Tank healing used to be a major source of healing required in the older expansions, your reasoning behind asking for this is so you, as a tank, are in no danger of ever dying. You're basically pushing the risk of dying onto the squishy dps because you can't be bothered to rely on the healer.

Tanks were healing sponges in ARR and HW. By Stormblood they'd begun picking up considerable self-sustain, and by Shadowbringers three of the four could mostly handle their own businesses. EW doubled down on what ShB gave us. And uh... dunno where you got the idea tanks are in no danger of dying thing from, considering SE has been on this "let's put a dot on the tankbusters" kick.

As for your question, a tank rarely requiring healing means single target regen effects are basically worthless. If you're pushing the healing requirements onto the squishies, that means burst heals are the only thing that work, dps also have limited defence values and limited HP pools, there is a small limit of how much can be stressed on the dps side. Tanks, on the other hand, can be stretched out much further. Sure, you can keep your broken self-sustain, but bosses need to bring back untelegraphed tank cleaves and crit autos, then you'll actually have a reason to have those tools.

There are numerous things in endgame content tanks won't necessarily be able to handle alone. If you're speaking of dungeons, then I would note only one tank is borderline immortal. The other three, while durable, will ultimately require healing on those wall to wall pulls if the DPS are lacking. All four benefit greatly from regen effects in all content.

Sure, you can keep your broken self-sustain, but bosses need to bring back untelegraphed tank cleaves and crit autos, then you'll actually have a reason to have those tools.

Yes, that would tend to be included in increasing mandatory damage. I did specifically mention changing fight design to force tanks to focus on self-sustain via more incoming damage.

[Aravell]

Yes, that would tend to be included in increasing mandatory damage. I did specifically mention changing fight design to force tanks to focus on self-sustain via more incoming damage.

See, if the new tank tools are being pressured and put to the test, I have no issue with it, because that would mean the tank would need occasional spot healing as well. What I have an issue with is the current design where bosses do tankbusters far apart enough that you can either invuln or kitchen sink them, which hardly pressures the tank kit because there's very little else that's threatening the tanks. It also makes healer tools like Aquaveil, Protraction, Exaltation and Taurochole somewhat pointless unless tanks feel some pressure again.

[Volgia]

Tank healing is so good in part because of how fights are designed lately. More often than not, the timing and amount of incoming damage is such that tanks will be able to keep themselves and others up reasonably well. A better solution than ruining the fun of tanks (and yes, the extreme survivability they have now is easily one of their most appealing qualities) would be to simply increase mandatory damage to the point tank cooldowns are no longer sufficient to maintain both themselves and others. In other words, you engineer situations where tanks are forced to focus on keeping themselves up. This in turn would leave DPS at the mercy of healers.

The lion's share of healers would be satisfied with a few more damage buttons for themselves and actually having to heal, no? Tanks get to continue being a one-man army, healers finally have a job to do, and DPS ... well, DPS really wouldn't notice a difference I don't think. Aside from maybe being a lot more likely to die if they're stuck with a bad healer.

I've also thought about this though I am not a support main, but I was wondering if the stat design had something to do with this. Because I see so many tanks try to avoid Tenacity for Crit, DET, or DH, and yet they are just as surviveable and tanky with or without them. There's doesn't seem to be a sacrifice of surviveability for damage, so it feels kind of pointless.