Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Aravell]

Healers want something to do, tanks want to be self-sufficient, and DPS don't want to die. Seems like a net win.

I honestly don't mind if tanks are reasonably self-sufficient, but it's an increasingly growing issue that tanks can also heal the party. It's reasonable that a tank doesn't want to fully rely on the healer to survive tankbusters and such, it's completely unreasonable for a tank to also be capable of healing the party because that spits in the face of the trinity.

[Absimiliard]

I honestly don't mind if tanks are reasonably self-sufficient, but it's an increasingly growing issue that tanks can also heal the party. It's reasonable that a tank doesn't want to fully rely on the healer to survive tankbusters and such, it's completely unreasonable for a tank to also be capable of healing the party because that spits in the face of the trinity.

In fairness, the trinity is kinda done to death at this point. A lot of games are moving away from it. Heck, even WoW has been gradually moving away from it by making tanks and DPS increasingly capable of supporting themselves and others. Anyway, I think a limited amount of party healing is fine. They just shouldn't be able to spam it.

And that heal on Shake it Off? Wtf was even the point of adding that? WAR was the last job they needed to add more healing to. I for one thoroughly enjoy WAR in its present state, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why that particular change seemed a good idea.

[Aravell]

In fairness, the trinity is kinda done to death at this point. A lot of games are moving away from it. Heck, even WoW has been gradually moving away from it by making tanks and DPS increasingly capable of supporting themselves and others. Anyway, I think a limited amount of party healing is fine. They just shouldn't be able to spam it.

And that heal on Shake it Off? Wtf was even the point of adding that? WAR was the last job they needed to add more healing to.

The way I see it, party shields are fine as tanks are meant to protect the party. Party healing is stepping on the toes of the healer in the party, if tanks can also heal, what's the point of a healer? If one wants to make a trinity game, they need to respect the boundaries of the trinity.

[ty_taurus]

In fairness, the trinity is kinda done to death at this point. A lot of games are moving away from it. Heck, even WoW has been gradually moving away from it by making tanks and DPS increasingly capable of supporting themselves and others. Anyway, I think a limited amount of party healing is fine. They just shouldn't be able to spam it.

And that heal on Shake it Off? Wtf was even the point of adding that? WAR was the last job they needed to add more healing to.

I think it makes sense for Paladin to have access to some party healing since that is very on brand for a Paladin. But I think party support and utility should come at some sort of opportunity cost so that Paladin isn't just a tank and healer. They need to sacrifice something to provide support. As for Warrior I have absolutely no idea. Nothing about Warrior's design makes me think "Heals the party." At least if it were Dark Knight, I could understand something like 'drains the life of the enemy and divides that amongst the party' not that Dark Knight really needs party healing. Or Gunbreaker using Junction if that were in PVE. Literally everyone but Warrior has some reasonable excuse for why they might have the ability to heal a little.

[Absimiliard]

Literally everyone but Warrior has some reasonable excuse for why they might have the ability to heal a little.

I guess yelling at people while red faced and with every vein in your neck and forehead bulging out just scares their bodies into rapidly closing wounds.

[TheDustyOne]

I don't mind if the boundaries of the trinity can be toyed with and we get DPS with decent mitigation, or healing, or the capability to off-tank in emergency situations. Likewise with healers having some decent damage tools for non-healing moments, or Tanks pitching in with healing as well. The problem we have is that the incoming damage is low enough for non-healers to be able to do most of the work, especially tanks. I'd be fine with nerfing nearly all tank heals, but I don't want to see them gone entirely.

Clemency is alright, but Knight's Benediction on Intervention might be too much, one requires sacrificing your own DPS for the parties sake, the other just gives free healing roughly every 20s (at the cost of some personal mitigation). Bloodwhetting being a personal heal on a short cooldown as Warriors way of managing incoming damage is fine, but having it be a 25s Benediction in dungeons is overkill. Nascent I think should be a shield or mitigation on an ally instead of any healing involved, it isn't the co-tank that's "too angry to die", that's the Warrior itself. Also yeah, Shake it Off regen was dumb and unneeded.

[Turtledeluxe]

“Fights barely have any downtime”

You mean besides those minute+ periods where the boss stands around maybe occasionally slapping the tank or doing a godly simple mechanic, in casual content a boss like byregot literally does 2 instances of raidwide damage in 7 minutes, I have about 15 instances of raidwide healing in a 2 minute period and I don’t even have to drop damage for it, even in savage a 9 minute fight usually only has like 5 big mechanics then the rest of the time the boss is just standing there and maybe casts a raidwide

“You want healers to do top DPS”

No the amount of damage healers do is totally fine it’s how said damage is done that is boring as hell, either give us a more interesting way to do the amount of damage we are currently doing or give us something else to juggle like beneficial buffs or hindering debuffs for the boss

I think this is fair. I don't play healers but I am interpreting this to mean you want some sort of mechanic (ie BLM Enochian or Reaper Enshroud) to spice up the rotation of WHM? On the other hand I would say I'm sure the devs are hesitant to give healers too much to do as it could actually get in the way of healing. So they would need to tread carefully as such.

Otherwise I would just say on the subject of downtime-- I don't really see when it isn't downtime if raidwide damage sequences are downtime. In terms of the majority of content (casual), for me as a BLM then, virtually everything is downtime except a handful of seconds I move around to avoid the current attack. That's all this game is. Wait around, push buttons, dodge attack, etc. Yes what you do in the midst of that cycle I suppose can seem meaningful, but the issues with the combat imo are larger than rotations. Things don't always do enough damage and boss encounters lack complexity.

Tanks aren't DPS either.

To expound on this comment, no tanks aren't DPS and I think warrior in particular is a bit problematic. But it's also the generic go to job and I can kind of see why they want it to be good at everything, for people who want that kind of experience. That said, if we go back to this subject of casual and midcore content-- it's not like bosses have any features like segmented parts (not phases or turns, I mean parts of them), some kind of weakness, stagger gauges etc. Tanks COULD have more responsibility other than popping shields a handful of times. Additionally imo the buff/debuff situation in this game is very undercooked and unsatisfying across the board-- because the game is so damage centric it feels like they are just there to be there. Basically this game is a zerg but with some dodging in between and we spend lots of time arguing how to make that zerging more fun when imo the issue with the game is much larger than any of that. And what I mean to say is how else can they improve the tank gameplay other than to buff it with their defensive element in the fights is so basic and routine (which an extension of the basic and routine encounters imo)?

Perhaps this is why simplifying every job, nerfing everything, etc caused so much ire? Not only because it seems counter intuitive but also because it exposes what's left of the combat once all of that is gone. WHM is complaining about the combat at the most basic level imo, not just their rotation. Which btw leads us back to the thread, why is 5% of such a big game engaging?

[Deceptus]

it's completely unreasonable for a tank to also be capable of healing the party because that spits in the face of the trinity. be able to fully solo an 8 man boss while the content is current

FTFY

I think this is fair. I don't play healers but I am interpreting this to mean you want some sort of mechanic (ie BLM Enochian or Reaper Enshroud) to spice up the rotation of WHM? On the other hand I would say I'm sure the devs are hesitant to give healers too much to do as it could actually get in the way of healing. So they would need to tread carefully as such.

A lot of healers have accepted the fact that CBU3 refuses to give us decent dps options / rotations because "It'd be too hard for players" despite tanks having them. We heal about as much as tanks mitigate anymore

So in the downtime we have requested buffing / debuffing roles

Personally I have advocated for Protect / Shell / Faith / Bravery / Haste to appear etc etc. All Final Fantasy staples

And that heal on Shake it Off? Wtf was even the point of adding that? WAR was the last job they needed to add more healing to. I for one thoroughly enjoy WAR in its present state, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why that particular change seemed a good idea.

CBU3 added a poison to most AoE's this expansion and apparently they don't trust healers to do their jobs so tanks / DNC / SMN / RPR get to do it.

If Healers aren't DPS, and thus should not receive DPS abilities, then why isn't that logic applied to tanks as well? They get new DPS abilities every expansion and they aren't DPS. Why don't they just get an obligatory upgrade to their basic combo buttons and get 2 or 3 new defensive cooldowns instead?

Nah, give tanks: a single attack button that generates high aggro, a single dot that generates high aggro, a single aoe and 8-10 mitigations they'll hardly ever use. Let's see how long they last before they start quitting the role out of boredom.

[Wim]

playing 4 job tanks now feels like it's all the same

[Sani2341]

for me as a BLM then, virtually everything is downtime except a handful of seconds I move around to avoid the current attack.

I think you got mixed up there. As a BLM downtime for you would be the bits where you need to move and you can't do your primary job (dps).
For a Healer in a decently competent group, the only time they have to do their job (aka healing) is after raidwides. Esp. As overhealing does nothing to help the group defeat the Boss.

To try and paint you a picture of how healing downtime feels, imagine as a BLM a fight where you die if you stand still outside a handfull specific mechanics that last 1-3 GCDs. That's how much healing is usefull in EX trials and a lot of savage.
Sticking with the above example also might help illustrate the other part of the issue. Afaik, outside Triple Cast BLM has like 1 or 2 instant casts you'd be expected to spamm all of that hypothetical'we hate castbars fight'. That's about what healers have as well. A DoT a spell and some once a minute extra options. And outside AST with the card system, there's really nothing to any of that beyond sastasha level'watch the cast bar fill up again and again' casting mechanics. None of it interacts with each other, nor the Healing part of the kit.