Using BLU to end the war

[OgruMogru]

I was thinking about something similar with integrating Blu skills into all classes, not just healer. So sorry this is only tangentially related but I think it would be cool if for DT if let us crossclass 2 maybe 3 blu spells into our normal kit. This could give healers the option to take a few more offensive skills, get their dots back, magic hammer to regain mp etc.

[Voidedge_Ragna]

Auto-Regen and 350 potency/tic for free. Sir, put the paint down, don't sniff it.


So what? It's a job with forced downtime that can't DPS besides the mentioned skills? Or are they having that DoT on top of more Dps? Someone who knows better can probably give you a better number, but 350potency/tic is likely very close to personal optimal healer DPS.

Imagine playing a job in which your entire DPS number is fixed, the best you can do is cast it with a pot during a burst phase and then basically pray to the crit god.

If anything, SE should soft release BLU, have it on the same level as the current patch, and have them always 1 patch behind in terms of what they can sign up for, and if 8 blues want to find a easier way to now solve 12s, then so what? The thing is over, everyone who wanted to clear has now, so let Blue do whatever they want. Just make things immune to the death moves if the expansion is current, that would streamline into dungeons that could be abused.

Instead, we get this class that nobody cares about, except for once every 2 years when they're updated, and you see them for 2 weeks. Blu is fucked, just embrace that.

[Renathras]

Setting aside the obligatory 'Why does it always have to be WHM?'

It doesn't. I've said before SGE would work, just slightly less well.

And no, this doesn't. THIS isn't like any of the healers today. Not ONE healer today has two DoTs it puts on targets then sits on its hands for the next 5 minutes. None. What healer plays like this proposal right now? Oh right: NONE OF THEM. Never mind it's all DoT based, something you and he already know I dislike.

Last I checked, "My way or the highway" isn't a compromise.

And yet, that's your consistent position. You get what you want and you are adamant not to actually give someone arguing against your position what they do in any way except on the most narrow of "your terms" which is you not actually giving up anything. And you do it in ways like this that show you clearly don't understand what is being asked for.

For the record, your 4 Healers Model™ would more accurately be the 3 Healers Model™ because your proposal is that one healer must be sacrificed.

No:

1) Because there would be 4 of them and they'd play differently with different levels of complexity, which is how the idea is defined.

2) No, it's sacrificing 3 of them and only saving 1.

Your stance isn't about "respecting" the healers. Your stance is about getting what you want and not giving up anything.

Auto-Regen and 350 potency/tic for free. Sir, put the paint down, don't sniff it.


So what? It's a job with forced downtime that can't DPS besides the mentioned skills? Or are they having that DoT on top of more Dps? Someone who knows better can probably give you a better number, but 350potency/tic is likely very close to personal optimal healer DPS.

Imagine playing a job in which your entire DPS number is fixed, the best you can do is cast it with a pot during a burst phase and then basically pray to the crit god.

If anything, SE should soft release BLU, have it on the same level as the current patch, and have them always 1 patch behind in terms of what they can sign up for, and if 8 blues want to find a easier way to now solve 12s, then so what? The thing is over, everyone who wanted to clear has now, so let Blue do whatever they want. Just make things immune to the death moves if the expansion is current, that would streamline into dungeons that could be abused.

Instead, we get this class that nobody cares about, except for once every 2 years when they're updated, and you see them for 2 weeks. Blu is fucked, just embrace that.

/agree

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EDIT:

I can't tell if it's funny or sad how delusional this statement is.

/sigh

Yeah, we're done here.

When I tell you how the model is defined and you call A DEFINITION delusion, there's no reason there. Ty, you're beyond reason.

But, that's why your proposals aren't acceptable. You don't care to understand the side opposed to you, so you're not offering something said side actually wants. And instead of understanding what you are clearly intelligent enough to understand if you actually wanted to, you choose to ridicule instead. I'm not going to entertain it anymore here, though.

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To answer your OP:

No, that is not acceptable.

[ty_taurus]

No:

1) Because there would be 4 of them and they'd play differently with different levels of complexity, which is how the idea is defined.

2) No, it's sacrificing 3 of them and only saving 1.

Your stance isn't about "respecting" the healers. Your stance is about getting what you want and not giving up anything.

I can't tell if it's funny or sad how delusional this statement is.

[ForsakenRoe]

So what? It's a job with forced downtime that can't DPS besides the mentioned skills? Or are they having that DoT on top of more Dps? Someone who knows better can probably give you a better number, but 350potency/tic is likely very close to personal optimal healer DPS.

Yeh, that's kinda the point, there's this constant argument of 'healers should be focused on healing, not doing damage', so while it may have a bit of sarcasm included, this 'pitch' would indeed allow a player to 'focus on healing', because their damage is entirely autopilot. I'm seeing posts over in general about how some people are having issues with the latest trial, that it's got too much visual clutter and it's hard to do the heal check in the last phase? But if the damage and HOT are 100% uptime, this would allow the player to focus on casting not-Medica, which as we all know, is the peak gameplay experience for healers /s

The issue of 'what if the casual player doesn't do damage and it causes enrage', fallacious as it is, would not be an issue at all on this one because they press their one damage button at the start of the fight and then the game handles their damage contribution completely. It might need a buff though. SGE is the 'personal damage' healer, with no POM to make damage calculations harder, and it does 330 per 2.5s, and 75 per 3s from it's DOT. By my quick 'just woke up' maths, that's 19320 potency per 2mins (factoring in 3 Phlegmas). To keep up with that number, this idea would need it's damage per DOT tick to be 483. Might also be hard to balance if it works as a regular DOT instead of like Variant Spirit Dart, cos it'd snapshot raidbuffs for the entire fight duration

BLU being what it is now, is an entirely separate issue unfortunately

ren moment

And no, this doesn't. THIS isn't like any of the healers today. Not ONE healer today has two DoTs it puts on targets then sits on its hands for the next 5 minutes. None. What healer plays like this proposal right now? Oh right: NONE OF THEM. Never mind it's all DoT based, something you and he already know I dislike.

Firstly, it's one DOT, with potency based on if you apply it for ST or AOE, not two. Secondly, the healer that 'plays like this proposal right now' would be like, classic WOW healers. It doesn't exist in FFXIV now, sure, but that is because SE learned that this kind of design is bad. Blizzard did too, that's why you see Druids using up to 4 DOTs in M+ runs, and HPaladins donking things with a big hammer. So what, one damage button to spam like Glare is required because 'sit on hands' is not gameplay, but more than that is 'busywork for the sake of it'?

Also, there's a very large difference between DOT based and DOT centric gameplay. You don't like DOTs because of DOT management (ie staggered timers etc), no? Yes, the source of your damage is one single DOT here. No, that does not mean it's a DOT-centric gameplay loop. You'd press it once and then ignore it. No timers, no 'pool resources so you can refresh at right time', just press it and then spam only healing moves like you're fighting a classic WOW boss like Patchwerk or something

And yet, that's your consistent position.

Might be theirs, but it is not mine. I've compromised on so much, that it's almost impossible to do bad damage on my WHM pitch. You'd have to purposely stop casting damage abilities full stop. The difference between attack A and B is so marginal that Crit Variance would cause your enrage 5 times over before 'WHM didn't press the right buttons in the right order' ever even thought about being an issue. The compromise happened in the design phase, not post-pitch. I figured that by getting the obvious 'we can't have Banish be a massive gain over Glare because what if casuals don't press it at the right time', and other such points of contention, out of the way before they even have a chance to be an issue, then the criticisms can be levied against parts that need criticism. Instead the arguments are attacking a phantom limb, something that was already addressed. Which just makes it look petulant, and makes it seem like 'any change is bad'.

You do know that the 'complexity' of WHM jumped far more thanks to an SE change (making Misery damage neutral) than anything I suggested right?

[/QUOTE]
But, that's why your proposals aren't acceptable. You don't care to understand the side opposed to you, so you're not offering something said side actually wants.[/QUOTE]

Because what 'said side wants' is effectively to be given the rewards of participating in a piece of content, at a fraction of the effort of any other role, by making one of the members of said role have zero depth, with no recourse for those who want to put more effort into said job. SMN is catching an alarming amount of flak over the same issue, because 'why would I want to learn an ultimate on RDM/BLM when I could brain-off and do it as SMN?' And they're right in a sense, the challenge of the Ultimate is in learning the fight, not in the job rotation. So it makes complete sense to use the more forgiving SMN with it's 6 total seconds of cast times per minute to learn something with as much movement and precise timings as an Ult, and then go back to try your 'actual class' once you know the fight mechanics.

Keeping one healer 'as it is now' means seeing the SMN argument again, but with healers. Everyone already asks 'why play AST for prog when WHM exists'. We did not need SMN to be the 'easy job of the role'. We had one already, it was RDM. And everyone was fine with the level of complexity RDM had, even in SB. SMN went far below that level, and set the skill floor bar to the lowest we've ever seen for a DPS class. We shouldn't be looking at the results of SMN and going 'let's do that again'

I understand what 'the other side wants'. I disagree with giving them 'what they want', because it is antithetical to 'competent game design'. There are some people who want to see positionals removed from Melee. I disagree with giving them that, too, because then Melee loses the final thing it has that justifies it dealing so much more damage than the Ranged/Casters

I can't tell if it's funny or sad how delusional this statement is.

I find it pretty hilarious. Man's on about 'saving' one healer from the damnation we'd visit upon the role. I'm sure the general playerbase will thank him for his tireless work in saving them from having an extra damage button on WHM

/s, if it wasn't painfully obvious

[Renathras]

Re RDM: They screwed it up by making its cap higher not lower. So it ceased to be that level of gameplay. ShB RDM > EW RDM. So with that seat vacated, they filled it with SMN.

Vanilla WoW was a mess, I think more BC and Wrath, personally. The difference is there was a lot of GCD healing.

Even so, all healers, even Holy Paladin, had a more expansive kit than this joke of a BLU "proposal" that we all know isn't happening since SE isn't going to lock BLU to any roles or static builds or put in current content. You'd have to add a new Job to the game. This is one thing about Ty's proposals going back to the brewhaha over CNJ, they all are designed so he doesn't give up anything. He doesn't have BLU as a healer know (in max level content) and knows he won't, so has written it off and is okay with giving it to the plebs. Same with CNJ back when that discussion happened. As proven by me suggesting adding a new Job, and no matter the Job I suggested for "the simple one" - Druid, Shaman, Chemist, etc - he opposed the idea since he didn't want something he might want to play to not be his level of complexity.

That was why I said it was selfish since it's rooted in a desire to have everything and not give up anything, and his other proposals like this one - in addition to being an absolute joke, even he can't have intended this seriously - is based on not giving up anything other than what he's already written off as either not wanting or never getting.

It's one thing to want old versions of Jobs back, but it's quite another to resist even a new one being added to appeal to the people not like you.

.

And I'm not even going to deign to address your "fraction of the effort" BS other than to say, yet again: You're wrong and insulting. Be better.

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The simple answer, btw, would be to take WHM, trade the oGCD heals for GCD healing throughput, and leverage Misery for damage neutrality. This BLU "proposal" doesn't do that.

Again, the issue here is a total lack of understanding what people are asking for, and thus a proposal that totally misses the mark. And insulting/disparaging isn't understanding.

In life, sometimes you have to realize that other people think and believe things differently than you. AND, as much as you may think you understand them, you often don't. And when you tell them what you think they think, that's rude. When you ask "Is this what you think?", and they say no, then it's offensive to keep insisting "Yes it is", and leads to animosity and inability to reach consensus since you're basing your bargaining on a lie.

"Oh, you won't take 1 million dollars for your daughter? How about 3 million?"
"What you seem not to be understanding, sir, is that my daughter is not for sale at any price."
"Oh, you drive a hard bargain. So, 5 million, then? You do just want money, right?"

[ForsakenRoe]

Another day, another bizarre analogy that involves something not-morally-acceptable by most western civilizations (in this case, arranged marriages and/or slavery)

Very strange. I miss the curry/hot wings days

[SpiralMask]

Giving a healer to the people who have championed the current healer model something even more appealing to their tastes while freeing up the existing healers to move away from that.

I for one am already disappointed that BLU (my absolute favorite class in the series) was relegated to minigame-only-at-gunpoint as a class by design, and would see it as an even greater slap in the face to see it then offered up as a 'sacrifice' to people who effectively want to play the role and game as little as possible.

just make all healers Fun™ individually, people who want a 111111111-spam class can go pound sand.

I was thinking about something similar with integrating Blu skills into all classes, not just healer. So sorry this is only tangentially related but I think it would be cool if for DT if let us crossclass 2 maybe 3 blu spells into our normal kit. This could give healers the option to take a few more offensive skills, get their dots back, magic hammer to regain mp etc.

this is more-or-less already the case as far as i've seen, in that a lot of the weirder BLU skill mechanics then went on to inform skill design changes for the "real" classes in the following expansion (BLU getting swap-skills like chelonian gate/cold fog, etc, then SMN and such having their summons swap to the big finisher attacks in their rework, etc)

[OgruMogru]

this is more-or-less already the case as far as i've seen, in that a lot of the weirder BLU skill mechanics then went on to inform skill design changes for the "real" classes in the following expansion (BLU getting swap-skills like chelonian gate/cold fog, etc, then SMN and such having their summons swap to the big finisher attacks in their rework, etc)

I would love to see that design ethos implemented in a meaningful way. Like the lost actions, maybe utilizing the duty action slots in regular battle content to give a little bit of flavour to the pared-down job design we have currently. Healer's that prioritize healing and support have more options, as would healers that want to be aggressive. Granted it would make Blu Mage mandatory to a degree but hey, that's more engagement right? But anyways, I don't wanna derail too much by sneaking my own pet-want into Ty's thread ^^;

[Renathras]

Another day, another bizarre analogy that involves something not-morally-acceptable by most western civilizations (in this case, arranged marriages and/or slavery)

Very strange. I miss the curry/hot wings days

It's a simple point and easy to understand - offering someone something but not realizing it isn't what they want or even in the same type of thing that they want.

Do you really not understand that?

I mean, genuinely, because it's the crux of the disagreement. Do you really not understand what people are asking for isn't what you're offering, which is why your proposals are rejected?