What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

"What's the point with that quite lackluster X" is not "critical feedback". It's just deriding something.

The OP has long since stopped posting in this thread, which in turn became a refuge for those of us critical of the story given that many of us have been dealing with unhinged stalking, death threats, sexual assault threats, attempts at character assassination and bizarre insinuations from various self proclaimed 'lore enthusiasts' who have proven many times that they will do and say whatever in order to attempt to silence and dismiss anyone even remotely critical of the game's story. Given that you have your own 'stalker' who went as far as to create a parody account to ridicule you I imagine you're well aware of the lengths some here go in order to discredit and harass those they disagree with.

Moreover, it's a free forum. You've posted in positive threads to bring down the mood. People are allowed to have and express opinions. And I have no issue with feedback, critical or otherwise. But when I don't agree with it, or have feedback of my own, I'm allowed to voice that, am I not?

Do you have a problem with people posting feedback on the forum if it's positive feedback? All the time people say "people who like things don't post, they just play the game", so what's wrong with someone posting about it for once? Do you oppose people leaving feedback on the forum that you disagree with? Because you seem more attacking me than my feedback here...

Nobody has claimed that you're unable to post. You're simply being called out for making some rather bizarre stretches, making an obvious parody thread and feigning concern in a rather transparent attempt to portray Lunaxia and myself as being completely unreasonable. Then when someone attempts to correct you the goalposts are moved and you try to insinuate that the shoe must fit after all if someone is responding to such accusations in the first place. (Who else would you even be addressing it to in the first place if you're responding to the very same subject being discussed by the posters in question...?)

I'm not sure what you're on about in regards to posting in positive threads to 'bring down the mood'. I post in threads that catch my eye and primarily use them to leave feedback. That certain posters treat any feedback that isn't to their precise liking as a deeply personal attack against the very fibre of their being is honestly not my concern. I always weave the disclaimer of 'I think' into my own posts to show that I am speaking of my personal opinion and I also frequently dangle the offer of agreeing to disagree on any given subject as well.

It's interesting to note how often it turns out to be the case where the same posters who feign concern over the mere existence of positive feedback towards the story always turn out to have the most bad faith take on Hydaelyn but readily bend over backwards to do damage control for the Ancients/Garleans.

Nice try, though it doesn't quite work - since I actually work off of established sources and back up my arguments. I imagine that plays a large part as to why certain posters never seem to address the actual points being raised and instead resort to either personal attacks or go off on irrelevant tangents unrelated to the subject being discussed. You know, a lot like how you decided to ignore the multiple posts I made showing why I was referring to a retcon within the story.

Also, did you literally go back over a year to posts I made to try and ad hominem/strawman fallacy me? o.O Talk about bad faith!

I did, to more readily tip people off to the sort of tactics that you like to deploy under the guise of posting in good faith. I could draw some more recent examples if you'd prefer, such as this particular gem when referring to yourself:

Not everyone's as rational as I am

Then there's this:

That specific tone and facial expressions - go watch the segment just before 30 mins; that's an angry face, not the face of someone being theatrical for the sake of it - make me think there's deep seated, and misguided, anger there. As people here note all the time when the negative nancies insist everyone who still likes the game is a shill worshiping Yoshi P: People liking the game aren't shills, nor are they saying no criticism at all is allowed or the like. They point out, as I often do, that insults aren't criticism, and insulting the devs and especially other players isn't critique under any definition.

I think that it's not at all uncommon for you to make some rather strange and frankly unwarranted insinuations about anyone critical of the game, right down to policing their, uh, facial expressions if they show their face and if they don't, the tone and content of their posts.

[Theodric]

It's even worse than that. Not only what you say, but also we find out that once again it was a plot from Venat to help guide us and keep the mess she created from destroying itself. I did the quests with my sister, and there was much swearing on my end. Which, to her credit, she found hilarious. I have given up on this story applying its morals equally. Venat didn't want people to rely on Zodiark and wanted to give the new life a chance, so she wiped out ALL life and instilled herself and her creations as gods so we could rely on HER teachings instead. Why? Because it's not evil if Light Mommy says so. -_-

It wouldn't be nearly so bad if the story didn't keep treating her as a selfless hero, but it does. I wish I had more dialogue options to tell her actions off. I understand they won't lead anywhere, but it would be soothing at least.

Worst part, the end of the quest doesn't fix anything. We still have to pray energy to the machine they left otherwise Venat's mess still caves in on itself. What happens when people stop believing in gods? When will this story admit that Venat screwed everything up?

Whew, and that was my rant for the evening, sorry. Just so frustrated with the story. Tired of being told one thing as a base for morals, and then having other things play out.

Yeah, that's the core of it for many of us posting here. The game spent close to a decade insisting that the protagonists clung dearly to a specific set of beliefs and those beliefs involved acts of genocide and racial replacement to be a line in the sand that could never be crossed no matter how sympathetic the motives leading to such acts happened to be.

Personally I never wanted Venat to be an outright villain, I simply wanted her to be held accountable for her actions in a way that didn't push her as a selfless hero. If her actions were directed at the Sundered, the Scions would have very different things to say about her.

A serial killer could go out of their way to protect me, though if I learned they were a serial killer after that fact I would be horrified and disgusted. That wouldn't negate what the serial killer did for me but nor would it demand that I approve of the baggage elsewhere in their life.

A bit of a playful analogy, perhaps, though it fits. Just switch out serial killer with genocidal eugenicist and you have Venat. Even more hilarious is Athena's story in Pandaemonium is really just Venat but honestly written - with characters actually showing disgust and calling out her plans as explicitly involving genocide. As an aside isn't it strange how the English localisation often refuses to call the Sundering precisely that, though does for the Rejoinings?

In all honesty Dawntrail just being a casual romp might be for the best if the writers aren't willing to commit to consistency when it comes to darker narratives with heavier stakes.

[Nayukhuut]

Personally I never wanted Venat to be an outright villain, I simply wanted her to be held accountable for her actions in a way that didn't push her as a selfless hero. If her actions were directed at the Sundered, the Scions would have very different things to say about her.

My sister and I were talking about it last night, and I agree with your post (would have included more of it in the quote, but alas forum posting limits). I love the whole shades of grey no one is wholly good or evil side of things. If the story had said that Venat's actions were wrong, but this is the world we have now and we have to make the best of it because the people here are also deserving of life, I would have been fine with that. I just want the story to acknowledge that her crime was on par, if not worse than what the Ascians did (she arguably has MORE blood on her hands). Unfortunately somewhere along the line we lost all nuance and switched right to Ascians and Ancients bad, and Venat good. Our characters keep going through the story and fighting for morals they tell me are important, while completely ignoring one of the people who stamped all over those same morals and lauding her as a hero every chance they get.

It's led to such a disconnect to me when going through these quests now. Listening them talk about freedom, and choice, and how every life matters and everyone deserves a say and knowing full well that comes with conditions. It might as well now just be so long as we personally deem life important they deserve all those things, but if we do not then, well, they died for the greater good... And I hate that so much.

Heh, and yeh, when I was going through the Pandaemonium quests I actually remember thinking that "oh hey, okay, maybe they have learned and they will start calling out the horrors of the Sundering too", but nope. No, Venat is still only a good person who was looking out for us and just wants to guide us and love us and is not at all an ideologue whose tiny group decided for an entire planet how they should live their lives and what choices they should make.

I have zero hope for Dawntrail at this point.

[Lunaxia]

It seems you're looking to be upset if you think that was "patronising false concern". It was genuine concern, btw.

No, it wasn't. It's a common tool used to subtly undermine what someone is saying by implying they're being ruled by their emotions while attempting to make yourself seem composed and open-minded by comparison, to further your own point of view.

You knew perfectly what you were intending to do when you decided to come into the middle of a critical discussion on the game and post "everyone has their own opinion (but some people just like to hate things.) Everyone has different tastes (but it's not healthy to hate things so much.)" Attempting to ditch any responsibility for what you've said and putting the fault with other people by making out they're seeing something that isn't there and pretending you were referring to some other vague entity is hilariously deceptive.

[Theodric]

My sister and I were talking about it last night, and I agree with your post (would have included more of it in the quote, but alas forum posting limits). I love the whole shades of grey no one is wholly good or evil side of things. If the story had said that Venat's actions were wrong, but this is the world we have now and we have to make the best of it because the people here are also deserving of life, I would have been fine with that. I just want the story to acknowledge that her crime was on par, if not worse than what the Ascians did (she arguably has MORE blood on her hands). Unfortunately somewhere along the line we lost all nuance and switched right to Ascians and Ancients bad, and Venat good. Our characters keep going through the story and fighting for morals they tell me are important, while completely ignoring one of the people who stamped all over those same morals and lauding her as a hero every chance they get.

It's led to such a disconnect to me when going through these quests now. Listening them talk about freedom, and choice, and how every life matters and everyone deserves a say and knowing full well that comes with conditions. It might as well now just be so long as we personally deem life important they deserve all those things, but if we do not then, well, they died for the greater good... And I hate that so much.

Heh, and yeh, when I was going through the Pandaemonium quests I actually remember thinking that "oh hey, okay, maybe they have learned and they will start calling out the horrors of the Sundering too", but nope. No, Venat is still only a good person who was looking out for us and just wants to guide us and love us and is not at all an ideologue whose tiny group decided for an entire planet how they should live their lives and what choices they should make.

I have zero hope for Dawntrail at this point.

Well said!

I always felt as though the game was a bit too long winded and preachy at times though I could get behind it so long as it was consistent. It was easy for me to understand the different perspectives of the various characters and factions. Despite being a Garlean enthusiast, one of my favourite characters in the game is actually Ilberd. Not in the least because even if I disagree with his methods, I can at least understand and sympathise with his plight. He got what he wanted, ultimately - a free Ala Mhigo and it made for some of the better political intrigue in the game given how the assault upon Baelsar's Wall went down.

That's the sort of storytelling I came to root for and appreciate in this game and it's precisely what I'd like to see more of in the future. Alas, pretty much any bit of content in the game that would facilitate that has effectively been tossed aside.

Now whenever I see the protagonists complain about something or paint it as a terrible thing I can only tighten my jaw and roll my eyes. When you have the 'heroes' be perfectly fine with the concept of planetary genocide so long as it benefits them then it really takes me out of it when they react with more indignation to some relatively minor inconvenience.

[Nayukhuut]

Well said!

I always felt as though the game was a bit too long winded and preachy at times though I could get behind it so long as it was consistent. It was easy for me to understand the different perspectives of the various characters and factions. Despite being a Garlean enthusiast, one of my favourite characters in the game is actually Ilberd. Not in the least because even if I disagree with his methods, I can at least understand and sympathise with his plight. He got what he wanted, ultimately - a free Ala Mhigo and it made for some of the better political intrigue in the game given how the assault upon Baelsar's Wall went down.

That's the sort of storytelling I came to root for and appreciate in this game and it's precisely what I'd like to see more of in the future. Alas, pretty much any bit of content in the game that would facilitate that has effectively been tossed aside.

Now whenever I see the protagonists complain about something or paint it as a terrible thing I can only tighten my jaw and roll my eyes. When you have the 'heroes' be perfectly fine with the concept of planetary genocide so long as it benefits them then it really takes me out of it when they react with more indignation to some relatively minor inconvenience.

Aye, exactly.

Er, and since you bring up the Garleans... I am quite a fan of them too. Little sad they were so over and done so quickly. Even more sad that they seem to be painted as entirely the aggressors. I mean, they are being treated slightly better than the Ancients in at least they get a chance to live and rejoin society, but it still drives me nuts at that people seem to forget that they were cast out and hunted first. Heck, their original homeland now has people living in it who consider it THEIR homeland. I would have loved more to do with them before they just became not relevant at all to the plot.

I really hope we get some sort of interesting crumb for Dawntrail, because lemme tell you almost nothing sounds worse than sitting around and eating tacos on the beach. Again, not holding my breath.

[aveyond-dreams]

I really hope we get some sort of interesting crumb for Dawntrail, because lemme tell you almost nothing sounds worse than sitting around and eating tacos on the beach. Again, not holding my breath.

And if we speak out against this kind of stuff we're told that either we hate fun or we have something against food. I just want an actual Final Fantasy game not FFXIV: Diner Dash.

[Theodric]

Aye, exactly.

Er, and since you bring up the Garleans... I am quite a fan of them too. Little sad they were so over and done so quickly. Even more sad that they seem to be painted as entirely the aggressors. I mean, they are being treated slightly better than the Ancients in at least they get a chance to live and rejoin society, but it still drives me nuts at that people seem to forget that they were cast out and hunted first. Heck, their original homeland now has people living in it who consider it THEIR homeland. I would have loved more to do with them before they just became not relevant at all to the plot.

I really hope we get some sort of interesting crumb for Dawntrail, because lemme tell you almost nothing sounds worse than sitting around and eating tacos on the beach. Again, not holding my breath.

It's good to meet another Garlean fan, then! They piqued my curiosity as early as ARR and the more we learned about them the more intrigued I found myself. It's a shame that we were quite obviously going to get a Garlemald focused expansion before it was scrapped. I could have settled for Endwalker compromising by giving us some form of Garlemald reconstruction but instead the game weirdly decided to avoid anything along those lines. There's a chance that it might show up in some form in Dawntrail but...I doubt it.

I would've liked Nerva to have been written as a reasonable authority figure for the surviving Garleans to rally to behind. You don't even learn his fate unless you do every role quest.

What's interesting is that practically every other nation in the game has been turned into some form of melting pot - so it struck me as very forced for the game to pretend as if the Garleans and Corvosi could not come to some form of arrangement in regards to Locus Amoenus. The Garleans could return to their farming roots and they wouldn't have to risk freezing to death in the wasteland that is Garlemald.

Failing that, surely there's some other place where they could be allowed to settle and work the land to their liking.

[Sparky_Mage]

Garlean survivors should have been hunted down like dogs imo rather than having been given a redemption arc and saying 'Well its the fault of those people who drove them to the frozen tundra of Ilsabard 800 years ago.' Emet as Solus founded the empire but every atrocity committed by the Empire was done by individuals of their own volition or 'just following orders' with no regard for the foul Savages who needed to be ruled.

Nobody forced them to consider all other races dumb savages who need to be ruled by the genetically superior Garlean race. Emet may have been pulling the strings but the common soldier, captain, and Legatus' still made their choices to be the most heinous people of their own volition. That is their own crazy that they marched in step with without question until the Popularis started to gain traction in the nation during the events of Stormblood and even then they were a very minor faction that were wiped out by Zenos in his bid to take control. It was demonstrated best when the first two Garleans we meet in Endwalker would sooner run off into the freezing cold full of monsters rather than dare to accept help from a filthy 'savage' who cant be trusted. But instead what the story took away from that was "Poor Garleans, the Corvorsi bullied them north almost a millennium ago so what was the Empire to do but take over the world and enslave all the 'lesser races'" as if that just hand-waves away the atrocities commanders and soldiers committed like burning Dalmasca to the ground for rebelling, the slaughtering of the Doman peoples, the crimes against humanity and assaults committed against the Ala Mhigans, ect.

And now we are working hand in hand to rebuild their Empire/Republic, seemingly ignoring everything they have done as we help them rebuild their country. Why aren't we working to help Fran rebuild Dalmasca instead? They deserve our help far more because they were innocent victims of Garlean aggression.

[Rufalus]

In a way, FF XIV is the Final Fantasy series now. The time gaps between the new numbered single player games has become very large (XIII to XV to XVI) but we have a new XIV expansion story every 2-3 years. As such I wish they'd break the formula more to provide new experiences and narrative styles within this game.

I think guest writers and creators would help challenge conventions. XIV has become very stuck in predictable tropes or 'anime moments' which is also why people disliked the last third of XVI. We've seen the power of friendship pull through many times, we've seen mysterious hooded person watching from a distance. We need some surprising new outcomes.