What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Nayukhuut]

Personally I never wanted Venat to be an outright villain, I simply wanted her to be held accountable for her actions in a way that didn't push her as a selfless hero. If her actions were directed at the Sundered, the Scions would have very different things to say about her.

My sister and I were talking about it last night, and I agree with your post (would have included more of it in the quote, but alas forum posting limits). I love the whole shades of grey no one is wholly good or evil side of things. If the story had said that Venat's actions were wrong, but this is the world we have now and we have to make the best of it because the people here are also deserving of life, I would have been fine with that. I just want the story to acknowledge that her crime was on par, if not worse than what the Ascians did (she arguably has MORE blood on her hands). Unfortunately somewhere along the line we lost all nuance and switched right to Ascians and Ancients bad, and Venat good. Our characters keep going through the story and fighting for morals they tell me are important, while completely ignoring one of the people who stamped all over those same morals and lauding her as a hero every chance they get.

It's led to such a disconnect to me when going through these quests now. Listening them talk about freedom, and choice, and how every life matters and everyone deserves a say and knowing full well that comes with conditions. It might as well now just be so long as we personally deem life important they deserve all those things, but if we do not then, well, they died for the greater good... And I hate that so much.

Heh, and yeh, when I was going through the Pandaemonium quests I actually remember thinking that "oh hey, okay, maybe they have learned and they will start calling out the horrors of the Sundering too", but nope. No, Venat is still only a good person who was looking out for us and just wants to guide us and love us and is not at all an ideologue whose tiny group decided for an entire planet how they should live their lives and what choices they should make.

I have zero hope for Dawntrail at this point.

[Theodric]

My sister and I were talking about it last night, and I agree with your post (would have included more of it in the quote, but alas forum posting limits). I love the whole shades of grey no one is wholly good or evil side of things. If the story had said that Venat's actions were wrong, but this is the world we have now and we have to make the best of it because the people here are also deserving of life, I would have been fine with that. I just want the story to acknowledge that her crime was on par, if not worse than what the Ascians did (she arguably has MORE blood on her hands). Unfortunately somewhere along the line we lost all nuance and switched right to Ascians and Ancients bad, and Venat good. Our characters keep going through the story and fighting for morals they tell me are important, while completely ignoring one of the people who stamped all over those same morals and lauding her as a hero every chance they get.

It's led to such a disconnect to me when going through these quests now. Listening them talk about freedom, and choice, and how every life matters and everyone deserves a say and knowing full well that comes with conditions. It might as well now just be so long as we personally deem life important they deserve all those things, but if we do not then, well, they died for the greater good... And I hate that so much.

Heh, and yeh, when I was going through the Pandaemonium quests I actually remember thinking that "oh hey, okay, maybe they have learned and they will start calling out the horrors of the Sundering too", but nope. No, Venat is still only a good person who was looking out for us and just wants to guide us and love us and is not at all an ideologue whose tiny group decided for an entire planet how they should live their lives and what choices they should make.

I have zero hope for Dawntrail at this point.

Well said!

I always felt as though the game was a bit too long winded and preachy at times though I could get behind it so long as it was consistent. It was easy for me to understand the different perspectives of the various characters and factions. Despite being a Garlean enthusiast, one of my favourite characters in the game is actually Ilberd. Not in the least because even if I disagree with his methods, I can at least understand and sympathise with his plight. He got what he wanted, ultimately - a free Ala Mhigo and it made for some of the better political intrigue in the game given how the assault upon Baelsar's Wall went down.

That's the sort of storytelling I came to root for and appreciate in this game and it's precisely what I'd like to see more of in the future. Alas, pretty much any bit of content in the game that would facilitate that has effectively been tossed aside.

Now whenever I see the protagonists complain about something or paint it as a terrible thing I can only tighten my jaw and roll my eyes. When you have the 'heroes' be perfectly fine with the concept of planetary genocide so long as it benefits them then it really takes me out of it when they react with more indignation to some relatively minor inconvenience.

[Nayukhuut]

Well said!

I always felt as though the game was a bit too long winded and preachy at times though I could get behind it so long as it was consistent. It was easy for me to understand the different perspectives of the various characters and factions. Despite being a Garlean enthusiast, one of my favourite characters in the game is actually Ilberd. Not in the least because even if I disagree with his methods, I can at least understand and sympathise with his plight. He got what he wanted, ultimately - a free Ala Mhigo and it made for some of the better political intrigue in the game given how the assault upon Baelsar's Wall went down.

That's the sort of storytelling I came to root for and appreciate in this game and it's precisely what I'd like to see more of in the future. Alas, pretty much any bit of content in the game that would facilitate that has effectively been tossed aside.

Now whenever I see the protagonists complain about something or paint it as a terrible thing I can only tighten my jaw and roll my eyes. When you have the 'heroes' be perfectly fine with the concept of planetary genocide so long as it benefits them then it really takes me out of it when they react with more indignation to some relatively minor inconvenience.

Aye, exactly.

Er, and since you bring up the Garleans... I am quite a fan of them too. Little sad they were so over and done so quickly. Even more sad that they seem to be painted as entirely the aggressors. I mean, they are being treated slightly better than the Ancients in at least they get a chance to live and rejoin society, but it still drives me nuts at that people seem to forget that they were cast out and hunted first. Heck, their original homeland now has people living in it who consider it THEIR homeland. I would have loved more to do with them before they just became not relevant at all to the plot.

I really hope we get some sort of interesting crumb for Dawntrail, because lemme tell you almost nothing sounds worse than sitting around and eating tacos on the beach. Again, not holding my breath.

[aveyond-dreams]

I really hope we get some sort of interesting crumb for Dawntrail, because lemme tell you almost nothing sounds worse than sitting around and eating tacos on the beach. Again, not holding my breath.

And if we speak out against this kind of stuff we're told that either we hate fun or we have something against food. I just want an actual Final Fantasy game not FFXIV: Diner Dash.

[Theodric]

Aye, exactly.

Er, and since you bring up the Garleans... I am quite a fan of them too. Little sad they were so over and done so quickly. Even more sad that they seem to be painted as entirely the aggressors. I mean, they are being treated slightly better than the Ancients in at least they get a chance to live and rejoin society, but it still drives me nuts at that people seem to forget that they were cast out and hunted first. Heck, their original homeland now has people living in it who consider it THEIR homeland. I would have loved more to do with them before they just became not relevant at all to the plot.

I really hope we get some sort of interesting crumb for Dawntrail, because lemme tell you almost nothing sounds worse than sitting around and eating tacos on the beach. Again, not holding my breath.

It's good to meet another Garlean fan, then! They piqued my curiosity as early as ARR and the more we learned about them the more intrigued I found myself. It's a shame that we were quite obviously going to get a Garlemald focused expansion before it was scrapped. I could have settled for Endwalker compromising by giving us some form of Garlemald reconstruction but instead the game weirdly decided to avoid anything along those lines. There's a chance that it might show up in some form in Dawntrail but...I doubt it.

I would've liked Nerva to have been written as a reasonable authority figure for the surviving Garleans to rally to behind. You don't even learn his fate unless you do every role quest.

What's interesting is that practically every other nation in the game has been turned into some form of melting pot - so it struck me as very forced for the game to pretend as if the Garleans and Corvosi could not come to some form of arrangement in regards to Locus Amoenus. The Garleans could return to their farming roots and they wouldn't have to risk freezing to death in the wasteland that is Garlemald.

Failing that, surely there's some other place where they could be allowed to settle and work the land to their liking.

[Sparky_Mage]

Garlean survivors should have been hunted down like dogs imo rather than having been given a redemption arc and saying 'Well its the fault of those people who drove them to the frozen tundra of Ilsabard 800 years ago.' Emet as Solus founded the empire but every atrocity committed by the Empire was done by individuals of their own volition or 'just following orders' with no regard for the foul Savages who needed to be ruled.

Nobody forced them to consider all other races dumb savages who need to be ruled by the genetically superior Garlean race. Emet may have been pulling the strings but the common soldier, captain, and Legatus' still made their choices to be the most heinous people of their own volition. That is their own crazy that they marched in step with without question until the Popularis started to gain traction in the nation during the events of Stormblood and even then they were a very minor faction that were wiped out by Zenos in his bid to take control. It was demonstrated best when the first two Garleans we meet in Endwalker would sooner run off into the freezing cold full of monsters rather than dare to accept help from a filthy 'savage' who cant be trusted. But instead what the story took away from that was "Poor Garleans, the Corvorsi bullied them north almost a millennium ago so what was the Empire to do but take over the world and enslave all the 'lesser races'" as if that just hand-waves away the atrocities commanders and soldiers committed like burning Dalmasca to the ground for rebelling, the slaughtering of the Doman peoples, the crimes against humanity and assaults committed against the Ala Mhigans, ect.

And now we are working hand in hand to rebuild their Empire/Republic, seemingly ignoring everything they have done as we help them rebuild their country. Why aren't we working to help Fran rebuild Dalmasca instead? They deserve our help far more because they were innocent victims of Garlean aggression.

[Rufalus]

In a way, FF XIV is the Final Fantasy series now. The time gaps between the new numbered single player games has become very large (XIII to XV to XVI) but we have a new XIV expansion story every 2-3 years. As such I wish they'd break the formula more to provide new experiences and narrative styles within this game.

I think guest writers and creators would help challenge conventions. XIV has become very stuck in predictable tropes or 'anime moments' which is also why people disliked the last third of XVI. We've seen the power of friendship pull through many times, we've seen mysterious hooded person watching from a distance. We need some surprising new outcomes.

[Theodric]

In a way, FF XIV is the Final Fantasy series now. The time gaps between the new numbered single player games has become very large (XIII to XV to XVI) but we have a new XIV expansion story every 2-3 years. As such I wish they'd break the formula more to provide new experiences and narrative styles within this game.

I think guest writers and creators would help challenge conventions. XIV has become very stuck in predictable tropes or 'anime moments' which is also why people disliked the last third of XVI. We've seen the power of friendship pull through many times, we've seen mysterious hooded person watching from a distance. We need some surprising new outcomes.

I'd like them to be bolder but at the moment they seem overly obsessed with the idea of catering to new players even at the expense of those who have been playing for a while. I think they've dug themselves a deep whole that they can't really climb out of, since they've attracted a lot of players similar to the one above your post where any nuance and depth is either loathed or ignored in favour of reductionist takes that reframe even the most complex moral predicament as black and white storytelling.

That isn't helped, of course, by the writers themselves often turning entire nations or individuals into complete caricatures - and that's not a problem exclusive to the antagonists. G'raha is perhaps one of the most prominent examples of a character hijacked in such a manner.

The writers seem outright terrified of changing the status quo where the Scions are concerned. If we get a new character on board, it isn't long before they adopt the exact same opinions and beliefs as the rest of the Scions. Zero intrigued me for all of five minutes - a more mercenary individual was a refreshing change of pace and a reflection of an actual personality type that exists in the real world. Instead of letting her remain as such we had a rather infantile story arc where she learns what a 'friend' is.

It's not the sort of storytelling that drew me to this setting back in the days of ARR.

Add in the lack of stakes, lasting consequences and risk of death for the protagonists and it leads to a situation where there's a degree of stagnation rarely seen in other MMO's.

Ideally the game should be more willing to seek to please a broader variety of personal tastes. Not every character or faction is going to appeal to absolutely everybody and that's perfectly fine - but their current model basically screws over everyone who isn't fond of the Scions to some extent. The cast is too bloated to the point where even when it makes sense for a different character deeply tied to a specific thing to show up they're lucky to get a cameo or brief acknowledgement in dialogue.

[Musashidon]

Ideally the game should be more willing to seek to please a broader variety of personal tastes.

the problem is we are the good guys that is the story everything we do is good, heck when we became the warrior of darkness we stayed the good guy even though the ones before us were bad guys.

people aren't playing to be bad guys so anyone who wants to be the bad guy will always be unhappy.