Zepla: Endwalker is the Worst FFXIV Expansion I have played

[SaberMaxwell]

Adding a +1 to "writing is meant to be precise and get the point across." I actually got in trouble early in my postgrad career because I had a false assumption that more word = better like it seemed to all the way up through undergrad, but my professor basically hit me with "there's a max page count for a reason. I ain't reading all that. 0."

[Saraide]

Alright I watched her video, condensed her points and tried to give some of my own commentary on it:

Zepla came back from a break refreshed and has taken another look at what bugged her. People in her circles are raidlogging, disengaged and pretty underwhelmed by the patch content. In her experience patches have very little staying power, she wants to have content people are excited for. She pins a lot of this lack of excitement on the lack of exploration zone. This is a vibes based thing, not specific to any one thing people did in bozja but because it funneled everyone into the same zone through various reasons (the lack of showing of mounts truly is tragic).

She hasnt heard a lot of people talk about relics this expansion (clearly not a forum poster). Relics in her opinion were about a journey together (forum posters who have read my posts know exactly what i think about relics and it does not align with what she thinks about this at all). She acknowledges that the EW relic is very much a deliberate choice.
For the story she wishes trials stayed in a side story like weapons or 4 lords (did we get less side quests because of this? felt to me like tataru quest replaced that, either is fine for me tbh). There is no excitement for her in the trials because we essentially know which trial is next.
Island sanctuary disappointed her because of spreadsheet simulator and nothing else being to it, no real reason to visit other people's island. (I firmly believe that the endgoal with IS is to create instanced housing)

She liked the raid series (both story and most of the fights) but she doesnt like the 2 minute burst window on all jobs.
Deep dungeon was not super exciting but aight, very cookie cutter.
V/C dungeon were very well designed in terms of playing but she dislikes the lack of rewards (I have strong opinions on MMO players addiction to extrinsic rewards for content but i'm not gonna complain if they put more rewards in content I already like, pure white dyes for example).
She likes CC but ranked is apperently dead after week 1 (liking CC is honestly just a bad opinion imo).
Giving people an exciting reason to log in is something very different than creating fomo structures that burn out people, she wants the first one but never the second one. (I also dont want the second).
DSR was her favorite gaming experience in gaming ever (clear DSR brain rot).

Her closing point is that all these things arent going to be fun for casuals either. (the word casual is doing some extreme lifting here, I see myself as casual and right in this moment the game is catering extremely to exactly me with how the raid tier is going for my static and the catching up on ultimates but the definition on who is casual isnt exactly set in stone). I guess I'll have to watch her next video aswell (on 2x speed)

Edit: hell yea didnt get hit by letter limit when i posted

[Thurmnmurmn]

Renathras makes me think of the definition of insanity. Always repeating the same thing expecting a different outcome.
Again, TLDR

[Swordsman]

??

Bro... what do you do all day?..

[Jojoya]

Things changing in education and with the times is nothing new and is inevitable.

Exactly.

Not sure why anyone took offense at my use of the word "different". Different doesn't mean bad, inferior, or anything negative. It just means different.

Was it the comment about social media? In my experience, there is truth in it. Perhaps someone else's experience is different. Again, different. Not bad, not inferior. Just different.

If you can accept that others are different with different experiences, different opinions and different ways of doing things, it's fairly easy to get along.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of posters here that are all too happy to immediately attack others who are different or who don't share the same opinion instead of saying "I disagree" and moving on. Human nature being what it is, those attacked eventually respond in kind. We get these threads blowing up into 100+ pages of nothing constructive because people would rather engage in mudslinging than discussion.

To be fair jojoya generally holds opinions that I don’t agree with but is mostly respectful, but defending quite possibly the longest post I have ever seen of ren’s with “we are just smarter than you” was always going to be a recipe to get dogpilled

Which is not what I said at all. It's like people were looking for an excuse to get offended.

After most my points fit more into derailing, i present you my take ... that has almost nothing to do with Zepla's video...

What i miss is things to do for the hardcore players, even though i am not one of them. I see people in my FC taking breaks or quitting entirely because they have nothing to do. The other things are longer time between patches and the predictability.

If the next deep dungeon is just gonna be another PotD with another animal transformation than what is the point? They seem to get too save with all of these. Like running the checklist.

In contrast we have new stuff like IS and VD/CD. Little rewards and no (big) group content... meh.

I personally would love a creative mode. A dungeon creator or something. Just look at Minecraft, Little Big Planet and so on. The devs of those games made the individual elements while the players create their own game. I feel like something in this direction will be good for FFXIV, because:

• We don't need big rewards for a creative mode: the mode itself - like creating dungeons and running them or make your own village IS the reward, therefore no fomo
• It provides something different to MSQ or Raids etc that always need writers and events and gear you can get... so it hopefully needs less dev time in the long run
• It can expand the "themepark mmo" idea even more

Out of curiosity, what is bad about having nothing to do FFXIV? It means an opportunity to play a different game.

I've got friends that frequently bring up their backlog of games they want to get to. They appreciate being able to take a break from FFXIV to play those other games.

As for a creative mode, it's why I would love to see the housing system overhauled. We're pretty limited here compared to what some other games have offered.

When it comes to dungeons, I think that would be more complicated to accomplish here than in Minecraft and similar games (I'm familiar with dungeon creation in Trove). I'm not sure it could be pulled off in a way that would be satisficing for both creators and users.

[Theodric]

Please stop making me nod in agreement and I do like your very articulated and considered responses as I have mentioned before, please try and refrain from taking forum breaks

--------

Meanwhile a streamer I don't watch caused a forum post, so listened to it along with the the follow up. She has an opinion which is as valid as anyone else and whilst a streamer is making a living I take that into consideration whilst drawing my conclusion. I agreed with some of what she said it, disagreed on others. When this game based on my own personal measure of when the fun stops, stop. Now Theodric doesn't share my love of G'raha in fact I would say the very opposite, won't speak for him though, but doesn't stop me reading his thoughts and considering his perspective to keep myself informed and see another view and always in the spirit of good banter. In fact if we chatted about it say at fanfest, it would be a great conversation and I would part having had a good chat.

I do hope thought very unlikely that these posts do cause some conversation and debate back in HQ and with those specifically involved in the game, though any outcomes are impossible to please all parties I suppose.

Hah, I appreciate it! I take a similar approach - I like to understand where different people are coming from and find some way of compromising/appealing to a broader range of personal tastes.

I'll likely be continuing to post for the foreseeable future given that I need to log on often enough to not lose my house. I can't rely on the demolition timer being paused now!

As for Fan Fest, I've no plans to attend one unless the game improves dramatically and did something very much to my personal tastes such as giving us an Ivalice themed expansion or something focused on Garlemald (as unlikely as that is now) but I did go to a Distant Worlds concert a few years back in London.

[Renathras]

No? Not sure if you’re trying to get a rise out of me or something /shrug

Never stated ppl can’t have differing opinions. Just need to give them in a constructive way. With no personal attacks (which seems impossible for certain ppl here).

But also to not attack those who do enjoy the game how it is. Which happens a lot as well.

Instead of attacking each other, we need to use the avenues given to give feedback. I don’t think there are CM here that collects feedback, let alone engages with the community … would think that was their job!

FF14 is not perfect. But if we are giving the same feedback ad naseum and it isn’t being looked at or implemented, the next step is to look at why that is so. Too difficult? Too expansive? Doesn’t sit with the game’s vision?

Good post. Agree with everything you said here, Angel.

I don't know about you but when you have a discussion/arguments with people, you go one point at a time. Spouting everything at once will have the result we see now.
Also with how popular this thread is, your post will be lost in the void by the evening.

For the record, I sure didn't read it.

You know, I've considered that.

She made functionally 22 points. We have a post limit of 20 per day. If we didn't have so strict a post limit, I'd consider it.

Though I'll also note that when people write out discussions on topics, they tend to break it into points but present it together, that way others can respond to points or respond to the whole.

And, as always "I didn't read" isn't usually an indictment on the person writing a thing...but you do you. What I will say is this: I at least offered concrete discussion on the topic and Zepla's points as she presented them in the video. Your post here in reply...did not.

One does not simply post in these forums. There is mockery there, which never sleeps. Not with ten thousand alts could you change anyone's mind. It is folly.

Some things are so worth doing, they're worth trying, even if the odds are high of failure. Trying to inject sanity into madness or serious discussion into dens of hecklers are both worth trying.

The preface he started with wasn't his. It was Zepla's own preface - but he cut it down in size.
Then why did you watch Zepla's video? Most of what he wrote was things she actually said though he summarized it. A few times though he wrote what she said word for word.
...
Are you sure you watched her video, or did you just have it playing in the background while you were watching Netflix on another monitor?

Yeah, I'm not sure everyone saying they agree with the video actually watched the video.

And the thing is (as I told Snow 20 pages or so back), when I do write shorter posts, people fill in the gaps with their wrong assumptions...then attack me over those assumptions. So I'm damned if I do ("too long, didn't read it") and damned if I don't ("You IMPLIED this!" "No, I didn't" "YES YOU DID!!" "I didn't imply it and I didn't mean that, I meant this..." "NO YOU IMPLIED THIS!!"). It sounds more like people searching for excuses to attack someone and not have good faith discussions with them at this point.

Challenge for you - pull up Zepla's video and watch it again. Put Ren's post to the side so you can compare.

Which is the long winded one?

Yeah, this is the weird thing. I'd honestly dare anyone here to summarize all her points and see how short they could actually make it without losing important details. I really am starting to wonder how many ACTUALLY watched the video they want people to talk about. Wouldn't it be hilarious if I was the first? I doubt it, but...it would be pretty funny at this point.

So you essentially think people on the forums are uneducated morons because all of us don't write 100k word responses and think your more educated and above everyone else.

That is, in no way, what Jojoya said.

Hilarious. I'm also probably the wrong person to try to use education on lol.

This is why your reply was odd to me. I'd think you'd know better based on what you've said in the past about your background.

Yup, he corrected me in a shorter post that I did read lol. That said, can you really blame me for assuming - his post was long enough it very well could have used a preface.

Kinda can blame ya, yeah. Considering the line right above that I literally laid out that I was about to summarize all her points and the very next lines are bullet points. If you had read the words immediately after "Preface)", it would/should have been obvious it was hers, not mine: "She says she wanted to..."

In my education, I was taught to be concise and to know my audience. This is a gaming forum, not a professional debate or a trial.

Here's the problem I have with this: IN THIS ONE CASE, people are asking folks to debate and discuss her video and points raised in it.

.

I also want to draw your attention to something - ever notice how when you and I are agreeing on something, your posts get 2-4 likes (usually me being one of them)? Notice this post of you disagreeing with Jojoya (and me by proxy) has 11?

I kinda want to make an alt, bash my Ren account with that alt, and see how many upvotes it gets. I mean, my point on that has already been proven a hundred times over, but it would be amusing to then post on my main quoting the alt with all its upvotes as damning evidence to prove it once and for all.

They cannot get their point across without resorting to dissertation length posts.

You know? Any other time you might have had a point.

But we're literally discussing a 40 minute video and I literally just watched the video and listed her points and we're literally being berated about not talking about the video. If you watched the video and agreed with it, you spent far more time and effort than reading my post on the topic already, and if you (the people demanding we talk about it) were serious about talking about it, that was literally what my post was doing.

So far, only one person has actually replied to that - full of snark and insult, but at least did it - indicating that no one actually wants to talk about Zepla's points. They just want to berate anyone who won't agree with them...but seem not to even know what they are, considering the one person who DID go through my list accused me of making several of the arguments that were actually Zepla's arguments that they'd supposedly agreed to. It's almost like people aren't JUST not reading my posts, they didn't bother to watch the video they say the agree with.

Which begs the question of what they thought they were agreeing with...

My background is learning science, so I was taught the opposite (for writing summaries of findings): be concise and try to say the exact same thing but with less words.
...
Usually if I end up writing a lot here it's because the original post is large as well. I try to keep at about medium here at most.

I'd like to test this, if you're game?

Watch her video again. Summarize all the points you think she's talking about, and offer your take on each, as I did. Can we see how long your post doing so will be? I'd like to see your take, honestly, and I'd like to see how short/long you can make it.

I'd also not the "original post" in this case was a 40 minute video. So...

See, thank you for proving my point. This is why you don't get useful feedback, because you either just ignore it, attack the people providing it, or stuff lies in people's mouths and then attack them for it. ... But hey, I happened to pick one particular thing that's from a past expansion, and you immediately claim that's my entire list and then try to jump down my throat for it...and then you wonder why the doomsayers on this forum are ignored by anyone who actually matters (i.e. the dev team).

This happens entirely too often. I don't think people are intentionally arguing in bad faith, but it makes it REALLY hard to have good faith conversations/productive discussions. (And there are a few accounts that probably are bad actors...)

New challenge: watch the video and shorten it as much as possible without losing viewpoints.

Yes, please.

I'd like to see everyone else's summaries.

I'm guessing both of their next series of posts are about to get particularly spicy.

Nah, my next post was actually engaging in discussion. Seems I'm literally the only person in here other than the person I replied to doing so, btw.

I'd personally prefer if we could all move on and actually continue an actual discussion, but knowing how this forum goes, it'll probably continue to get derailed into senseless bickering lol

I've been trying, dude! Seriously. I'm literally the only one posting about her video and her actual points. And the irony is, all the people not doing that are splitting their time between attacking me over it, insisting I'm the one derailing the thread, assuring that they want to discuss her points/the topic, and attacking anyone who steps in on my behalf.

I agree. However, people choose to die on some pretty strange hills, so the bickering continues.

I mean, I'm trying to and you're browbeating me over it. If you want to engage with Zepla's points, all you had to do was reply with your take on them OR look at my summary and offer rebuttals to any of the points you disagreed with. You thought it was more worth your post count to do this instead of that. So how genuine...well, never mind. Point is, no one's stopping you from doing so if you REALLY want to do so.

^okay ren I’m gonna say this in the nicest way possible but NOBODY wants to respond to 21 individual points raised to the point you have to edit the post to dodge the post limit. BRVV only did it to attempt to show you the futility of trying to have a discussion when you are making 21 points per post

Distill zepla’s message down to her core 1-2 points then argue those, that way someone who actually wants to debate you won’t have your post be 9 pages deep by the time they actually formulate their response, then everyone can participate in the debate; rather than those who have an hour on their hands

zepla can afford to be longer and more free form because it’s easier to listen to 30 minutes of discussion than to read its transcript

Snow, I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible:

Though MOCKING, BRVV did the right thing - actually responded to someone talking ABOUT THE TOPIC by...talking about the topic. And I was able to offer a direct response to him. THAT is what "discussing the topic" looks like.

Not mocking people's post length, not telling people they talk too much, not making fun of people, not berating people, not telling them how THEY should be discussing the topic. I'm literally the only one here discussing the topic other than BRVV's post replying to mine. NONE OF YOU are talking about the topic.

If you want to raise 1-2 of her points and so we can discuss those, then YOU CAN DO SO. I would reply to those points if you did.

Her message isn't 1-2 core points, though. It's 22. I know. I checked. I listed them out. Which shall we ignore? Shall we ignore the point where she thought the patches didn't add enough? Should we ignore where she thought Criterion didn't offer enough rewards? Shall we ignore her complaints on CC in PvP? Which points should we ignore?

Which is not what I said at all. It's like people were looking for an excuse to get offended.

There's a funny thing here with General:

If your name is Renathras OR you agree with Renathras, people start making up things you said and/or interpreting things you said in the worst way possible so they can take offense and berate you over things you never said that they want you to have said so they can attack you over them instead of engaging with the topic you're discussing.

WEIRD, but that's the way it is.

Tried to quote this post

See?

.

Everyone: We want to talk about the topic, Ren's derailing the thread.
Ren: <talks about the topic>
Everyone: LOL! Let's all mock Ren and berate him over post length!
Yoyoja: He's right you know.
Everyone: LOL! Let's all mock Ren and berate him over post length AND mock Jojoja, too! We want to talk about the topic, Ren (and Jojoya) are derailing the thread.
BRVV: I'm going to mock Ren but also respond to his points, that'll show him!
Ren: <Responds to BRVV's points ignoring the insults>
Everyone: LOL! Let's all mock Ren and berate him over post length!

Renathras makes me think of the definition of insanity. Always repeating the same thing expecting a different outcome.
Again, TLDR

TL;DFR:

You can't complain people aren't engaging with the topic WHEN YOU ATTACK THEM FOR ENGAGING WITH THE TOPIC.

[BRVV]

I don't love Zepla. I don't hate Ren. I don't know why on page 80+ a summation of a video that is the topic of the thread needs to be given.

My long post was to mirror you. Didn't expect it to work that well.

I insulted you and others when they insulted me first. Not the best or nicest way to react but i at least didn't start the fire. Maybe you should read your gaslighting in your post or just read them to someone if you don't feel what you write has insults in it. To me it has. A lot of gaslighting, insults, elitism combined with assumptions about everyone else. I kept my assumptions low.

About the points.Yes i sometimes disagreed with Zepla. So? Isn't that the discussion you wanted?

I did assume you aggree with here when you didn't say otherwise. Apparently that was not the case since you harp on about me calling you out for things she said. I responded to the text. I'd assume you wouldn't mix your opinion and Zepla's takes that wildly. I don't know why you did. Your long post has Zepla's takes AND your opinion sprinkled in. What use that it have then? Realistically i would only need one of the 2. Keeping them seperate might help. On point 13 for example i did respond to you though? I mean you wrote that you aggree with here there specifically, so i don't get how that point should be seen as only Zepla's opinion.

People "having to come up" with reasons to play, what Zepla suggests is imho a bad take. Why? It sounds like it's my obligation to make the game fun for me. That in itself isn't so bad, but... i could just cancel my sub and finally play all those other games i have, or read more, or watch that show... you get my point. In this age that is just a weak argument imho.

"Note i didn't include an insult in that paragraph" - Yep that's why I said it's several paragraphs later

The only reasons i called you out for proof is you putting words in people's mouths while saying others - like me - are not allowed to speak for groups / everyone. Why do you get to state your assumptions but no one else?

[Supersnow845]

Exactly.

Not sure why anyone took offense at my use of the word "different". Different doesn't mean bad, inferior, or anything negative. It just means different.

Was it the comment about social media? In my experience, there is truth in it. Perhaps someone else's experience is different. Again, different. Not bad, not inferior. Just different.

If you can accept that others are different with different experiences, different opinions and different ways of doing things, it's fairly easy to get along.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of posters here that are all too happy to immediately attack others who are different or who don't share the same opinion instead of saying "I disagree" and moving on. Human nature being what it is, those attacked eventually respond in kind. We get these threads blowing up into 100+ pages of nothing constructive because people would rather engage in mudslinging than discussion.


Which is not what I said at all. It's like people were looking for an excuse to get offended.

“We have different educations, standards were different back then”

Nah bro I’m totally not saying I’m just smarter than you

Don’t try to pretend that 70’s education valued long form commentary over knowing what the word synopsis means, you just wanted a thinly veiled way to say you are better than us

[Remish]

I agree. However, people choose to die on some pretty strange hills, so the bickering continues.

There is so much passive aggressive behavior in this thread that I just genuinely cannot tell the difference between people actually debating and people who just want to stir the pot because they can. There are so many posts I thought about quoting but realize it just isn't worth the time and effort to.