I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Zeastria]

Is this some sort of quip against healers getting one or two more meaningful dps buttons or something?

Look man I'm an atrocious healer in MMO's so if even I'm bored when playing healer except when people are eating gridanian topsoil something needs to give.

You can increase healing, you will still find healing downtime to use dps abilities. If that downtime can even be found in ultimates, what you're asking for is something they will absolutely never provide in casual content.

I support them increasing the healing that needs to be dished out, but it IS NOT going to fix the overlying issue of healing downtime being mind-numbingly boring

There is a difference between doing dps during downtime, to outright refuse to heal bc it's dps los.

There will be less downtime with more to heal,dispell ..ect ^^ ( just look at how raid healing workes in WoW)

Im fine with dpsing when downtime, however our dps button shouldnt be the most casted ability.. we speaking 90% here..
if that could be reduced to let say to 50-30%.

Ik SE isn't gona change that ..(just wishful thinking atm)
But i rather side with more heal req, than more dps buttons.

[Zairava]

There is a difference between doing dps during downtime, to outright refuse to heal bc it's dps los.

There will be less downtime with more to heal,dispell ..ect ^^ ( just look at how raid healing workes in WoW)

Im fine with dpsing when downtime, however our dps button shouldnt be the most casted ability.. we speaking 90% here..
if that could be reduced to let say to 50-30%.

Ik SE isn't gona change that ..(just wishful thinking atm)
But i rather side with more heal req, than more dps buttons.

Oh, I know there's a difference, and I'm not saying it's okay to do so.

I dabble in WoW from time to time, the healing looks much more involved WITH room for downtime, and how it should be implemented imo.

[Supersnow845]

Healing in WOW is much more freeform because it has a responsive server and a short GCD, can you imagine DPS randomly getting whacked by a stray auto every other second on a 2.5 second GCD, it would be a hot nightmare

Increasing randomness of tank damage like coils is fine because the tanks can absorb more autos but party random autos on our long GCD would not be fine

[Zeastria]

Oh, I know there's a difference, and I'm not saying it's okay to do so.

I dabble in WoW from time to time, the healing looks much more involved WITH room for downtime, and how it should be implemented imo.

When i played WoW, we only had time to dps during trash between the bosses.
During boss fights i had to heal mostly..

High M+ is probably the closest thing you get to ffxiv from wow 's side.
WoW design wouldn't work here, due to how the game is designed and made..

But having more to heal in casual content wouldnt hurt..it would lessen the 111 dps button spam and give us more reason to use our healkit...

What is there to not desire if you enjoy healer?
Do you only play healer bc you enjoy the 1 dps button spam?

[Zairava]

Healing in WOW is much more freeform because it has a responsive server and a short GCD, can you imagine DPS randomly getting whacked by a stray auto every other second on a 2.5 second GCD, it would be a hot nightmare

Increasing randomness of tank damage like coils is fine because the tanks can absorb more autos but party random autos on our long GCD would not be fine

yup, I know. If they ever change to a better engine it would be a dream though

When i played WoW, we only had time to dps during trash between the bosses.
During boss fights i had to heal mostly..

High M+ is probably the closest thing you get to ffxiv from wow 's side.
WoW design wouldn't work here, due to how the game is designed and made..

But having more to heal in casual content wouldnt hurt..it would lessen the 111 dps button spam and give us more reason to use our healkit...

What is there to not desire if you enjoy healer?
Do you only play healer bc you enjoy the 1 dps button spam?

for it not working for ffxiv, see my above response to snow.

And again, I am for adding more to heal in casual content, it's sorely needed. I don't play healers that often for a few reasons.

It just doesn't click with me, never has and likely never will. It's also why I don't really provide suggestions to improve their current state in detail, if I ever do at all. I also don't play them because one button spam makes my brainrot speed up tenfold.

[Renathras]

The biggest problem in healer design right now is, if you take the easy route and cut out the large amount of OGCD bloat......what do you fill the void with? Healer kits would be very, very barebones without all that bloat, what's the plan after that?

This is actually a pretty good question.

I think part of the answer is looking at how other games have handled this. For example, in WoW, Burning Crusade, what all abilities did Holy Priests have? Sure, downranking was still a thing back then, but that aside, they had different heals with different cast times, mana costs, and effects; and didn't have any "oGCDs" since oGCDs didn't exist in that game.

For a start, not being oGCD doesn't mean things have to be completely removed. For example, Earthly Star could be an instant cast GCD spell useful for movement or planning out future healing needs. Divine Benison could be Stoneskin, which was a cast time GCD barrier spell with no CD in ARR and HW. Protect also had a cast time, so something like Temperance as a short duration mitigation could exist. Something with enough of an MP cost that spamming it when you don't need it is detrimental, but using it sparingly in advance of big attacks is wise. And as we know from Pneuma, spells can be GCDs with MP costs that still have CDs to limit excessive use.

Point is, we have to first remove the idea that "oGCD or nothing" is the choice. There are very few abilities that work that way. For example, Tetra is(well, was) Cure 2 in oGCD form. But Assize isn't Medica. Ixochole isn't Prognosis. We can work out how similar is too similar, but Earthly Star is an oGCD that doesn't really have an overlap with any of the GCDs in AST's kit, for an example. And oGCDs that function in tandem with GCDs (Deploy, Plenary, etc) probably aren't a problem THEMSELVES.

That said:

Mitigation from DPS and Tanks: Arguably some of that does make sense (more DPSers than Tanks, though).
Damage buttons: For some healers; I've literally been arguing this for over a year with the 4 Healers Model.
GCD heal buttons: Other than converting oGCDs into GCDs where it makes sense to do so (again, Earthly Star as an example), this is only part of an overall healer design and encounter design thing.

"cutting out the OGCD bloat is only one part of the solution": Isn't this literally what I said? "Healing needs a total top-down revamp" for example, but that's hardly the only thing I've said on this topic.

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I think a big part of the problem is that people don't see oGCDs as "real" buttons. You cast Glare than Tetra than Glare than Assize than Glare than Glare than Benison than Glare than Temperance. What did you just do? "11111, that's so boring!". It's partly this player perception that, if it's not a GCD, it doesn't count, that has to be addressed. Either the playerbase can debase themselves of that (unlikely) or we can force oGCDs into being GCDs to do it for them. Though I do agree - and have said many times - that oGCDs should have a higher cost than GCDs unless they're weaker. Cure 2 should cost less than Tetra in terms of MP, because it has a cast time and triggers the GCD. Those are costs that it has, so Tetra needs a cost equivalent to that. "But it has a CD" isn't a cost, since that just means you can't use it a second time, it doesn't diminish its effect or functionality.

Cast bar...

I can't be sure, but I feel like you aren't telling the truth.

You guys call me a Sylphie all the time, but I don't "crumble when the first sign of stress/pressure starts to happen in normal content". "They straight up don't possess the mental capacity"; who are "they"? "Sylphies!" Who? "Them!" WHO?

"TOP men..."

You make all these statements about people that I'm sure you think exist, but seriously, why do you think people who only cast Medica 2 now would quit if healing became a game of "You just press Medica 2 over and over again"? That makes no sense. Even if you assume all the worst possible things you can about people who want to heal and not DPS - as you pretty much have - you're literally saying if healing was made to be what they basically DO ALREADY they'd quit. That...makes no sense.

EDIT:

I would like to reiterate once again for the people who think a healer not being optimal will lead to an enrage in any content other than week 1 savage/current ultimates. If a SCH does not have Biolysis up for the entirety of an average P9S kill, a single direct crit Hyosho Ranryu (or equivalent potency skills from other dps) under raid buffs can completely make up for that lost damage.

Is healer DPS significant or is it not?

All the time:

1) "Healers do 60% of a DPSers damage! Healers in this game are green DPS and always have been! Encounters are balanced around healer DPS! Healers are absolutely designed in this game to do DPS!"

"So...then making their DPS harder is bad."

2) "Nonononon, healer DPS is negligible and not doing it really doesn't affect anyone."

(1) and (2) are contradictions. Saying "Well, (1) is only true in some very specific situations"...is still a contradiction with (2). Either healer DPS is relevant, in which case making it more involved affects everyone, or it's irrelevant, in which case it doesn't matter. It can't be simultaneously true AND false that healer DPS is relevant.

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In any case, the reality is, changing up the DPS affects everyone. Anyone saying it doesn't isn't being truthful. So then the onus is on them to argue why it's still okay to do so. There arguments to be made for that, but they very much depend on HOW the DPS is changed and balanced. The bigger the gap, the more relevant it becomes and the more it affects people.

Also: People shouldn't be going around insisting to others that things don't affect them in the first place when those people are saying it does. When you're telling people what matters TO THEM instead of listening to them tell you what matters to them, you're probably in the wrong.

[ForsakenRoe]

For a start, not being oGCD doesn't mean things have to be completely removed. For example, Earthly Star could be an instant cast GCD spell useful for movement or planning out future healing needs. Divine Benison could be Stoneskin, which was a cast time GCD barrier spell with no CD in ARR and HW. Protect also had a cast time, so something like Temperance as a short duration mitigation could exist. Something with enough of an MP cost that spamming it when you don't need it is detrimental, but using it sparingly in advance of big attacks is wise. And as we know from Pneuma, spells can be GCDs with MP costs that still have CDs to limit excessive use.

Point is, we have to first remove the idea that "oGCD or nothing" is the choice. There are very few abilities that work that way. For example, Tetra is(well, was) Cure 2 in oGCD form. But Assize isn't Medica. Ixochole isn't Prognosis. We can work out how similar is too similar, but Earthly Star is an oGCD that doesn't really have an overlap with any of the GCDs in AST's kit, for an example. And oGCDs that function in tandem with GCDs (Deploy, Plenary, etc) probably aren't a problem THEMSELVES.

Well, unfortunately, we can't remove the idea that 'OGCD or nothing' is the choice, because we as a playerbase are used to OGCDs now. We've had them for so long, they're grandfathered in to the design of the game. You can look at WOW for how the playerbase there reacted when Blizzard moved all the 'OGCD' skills, damage buffs, selfheals, some tank mits (if you can believe that) to the GCD. Prot Paladin's selfheal proc is now a GCD, so you can die because of your GCD lockout preventing you from clutch healing yourself. It was a HUGE outcry. People STILL complain about the change, it happened four bloody years ago now. That and the AOE cap. If SE tried to move heals to the GCD, then people would complain so hard, it'd get changed back within 2 weeks. How are you gonna 'clutch emergency heal' when you're GCD locked, for example? Benison takes 3 months to apply the shield, Benediction takes 4 to actually apply it's heal effect, you want to have it even further delayed because of your GCD spinning? Moving things to the GCD would slow the healing game down to a crawl. Go back and look at some ARR healer POVs, you cannot play like that in the current game, there's too much movement required for mechanics. Identify your shape, move to intercept the tether, move across the arena cos it's gonna spin, move to bait the protean, move to dodge the shapes exploding, move middle for raidwide, make sure to heal in between all of that too! I don't see how it's feasible without completely upending how fights are designed, in which case, once again we're at the result of 'this is a solution that requires a solution that requires a solution'

Besides, as loath as I am to suggest the idea, it is only fair that you consider that if healers have to have their OGCDs removed, then Tanks do too. And I cannot see any tanks being happy about the idea of, eg, Continuation or Edge of Darkness being a GCD. Or Mitigations, god forbid

edit

(1) and (2) are contradictions. Saying "Well, (1) is only true in some very specific situations"...is still a contradiction with (2). Either healer DPS is relevant, in which case making it more involved affects everyone, or it's irrelevant, in which case it doesn't matter. It can't be simultaneously true AND false that healer DPS is relevant.

Also: People shouldn't be going around insisting to others that things don't affect them in the first place when those people are saying it does. When you're telling people what matters TO THEM instead of listening to them tell you what matters to them, you're probably in the wrong.

Healer DPS matters in that you need to do some damage as a healer to clear content with enrages. The harder the content, the more is expected of the healer/the less the healer is allowed to slack (the DPS can pick up the slack in Extremes for example). The suggestions for Healer DPS that make it 'not as big a deal as you think' is that rather than demanding 'more damage' from the healer, we are demanding 'the same amount'. The enrage timers are not going to be changed because of changes like are being suggested. So the 'Healer DPS is mandatory' angle is only as true as it currently is, just that instead of 'the game expects you to have 80% DOT uptime and cast 100 out of a possible 120 Glares', it becomes '80% DOT uptime, and use 100 out of 120 Damage GCDs, either Glare or Banish or Luminaire or whatever you like', and provided that those additional tools are equal to or more damage than Glare, you'll still meet the DPS check. In fact, if they're higher, you would have the lenience to miss some Glares elsewhere. Maybe because of Banish being a bit higher potency, you make up the damage for a Glare elsewhere that you lost because you needed to GCD heal to save the Tank.

And we do listen to people telling us what matters to them. But as with many things in life, you can't just give them what they think they want directly, because often they've not thought things through. People ask for 'more healing required', but have they thought about how it'd affect MP economy? How much would it need to increase by? If the increase is not enough to fix the problem for the people most complaining about it (savage raiders), then what else has to be done to create a functional 'solution', and how much additional dev time does that take? Are there any alternative solutions that would not take as much dev time?

[ty_taurus]

Is healer DPS significant or is it not?

You can find the answer to your question in your own post:

Point is, we have to first remove the idea that "oGCD or nothing" is the choice.

Just as you ask others to open their mind to the potential of more varied healing existing on the GCD, you should also open your mind up to healer DPS contributions as being more than either 100% or 0% and nothing in between. Yes, healer DPS does matter, but that doesn't mean you miss one Biolysis and suddenly the party hits enrage. That's Aravell's point. It's confusing a minor misstep with a total face plant, and that's not realistic. While players will always strive to output 100% of their jobs total potential damage output, almost no one will ever actually achieve that in actual play. In fact, I've been doing some math recently that I want to share over on the healer forums that not only will help explain that falling short of perfection is not failure, but that having a wider variety of DPS actions can actually make your DPS contributions more forgiving, not less.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I can't be sure, but I feel like you aren't telling the truth.[...]

"Medica II Mage" refers to healers who doesn't know the correct answer to X mechanic---they only toss out Medica II/Succor/Asp Helios/E.Prog/whatever their comfort button are, then hope for the best. Literally only you who's so focused on this semantic & refuse to read between the line for whatever reason.

I do know they exist, and I know how they mostly will react when $h!t hits the fan. Why? Because I play so much I have more than 10,000 worth of dungeon/trial/raids cleared (Lifer III Achievement) across my entire XIV gametime on my main boy at this point since early 5.2, which comprises mostly normal contents. That is how I get to witness these "Sylphies" & how it shapes my view of them---my firsthand observation and experiences. If you, who on the other hand do not even possess Lifer II (5,000 clears) worth on your character's name despite having played from ARR still wants to dismiss my account then by all means go ahead, whatever keeps the boat afloat. I trust my fresher 10,000 runs over your <5000 runs spread across 10+ years.

Also lmao idk why you feel the need to tell me that you don't crumble under the first sign of pressure/stress. I mean hey, good for you & all, but I'm referring to those plethora of Sylphies I've encountered.

[Renathras]

Well, unfortunately...

Yes, but this is true of one-button DPS as well. This is an argument against all change. I think MOST OF US recognize that healing in this game has to have a complete revamp from the foundation to the rafters. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think that's what all sober-minded appraisals have come down to. The problems are so fundamental, they require a complete shift to work. "We've had them for so long/grandfathered in" works just as well for one-button DPS rotations as well.

Most of your arguments in that paragraph were kind of opposing the idea of healing plans or preemptive - not just reactive - healing. That is, you're opposing the thing a lot of people like about the healing game. This is something that seems common with the "no more healing, more DPS" paradigm in general, but an opposition to actual HEALING gameplay. Healing shouldn't be "what can you weave in to immediately resolve damage and then get back to DPSing".

As for Tanks: Tanks aren't asking for more damage buttons right now, so trying to rope them in is a canard.

And we do listen...

I get that, really, but also:

1) This goes both ways for what you want, too,
2) You SAY they haven't thought things through, but many have.

Say what you will, you should know by now I've thought a lot of this through. Ad nauseam.

You can find...

Legitimately: Welcome back. I've honestly missed you, Ty. I know it doesn't always come across, but I do like hearing/seeing your thoughts and opinions on things. I'm glad you're back. /hugs

Your second point is in the right ballpark. It's why I propose and support and promote the 4 Healers Model all the time. I think it's a legitimate solution to that issue. But as to your specific point - it's why I note that if the change is so minor to be negligible, then the same people promoting it now will be the voices asking for it to not be negligible later. The whole "I do so much more work, I should be rewarded with greater output" starts to creep up. We already see it in some cases like SMN vs RDM, and some people in these very discussions have argued against that in the past.

As for if it makes it more forgiving, three notes:

1) That depends entirely on HOW it's implemented (e.g. I've proposed some before where the difference is negligible, and generally, been told the difference was too small and not enough "reward" for the "more work"),
2) This is a very mechanical view - many people like how their Jobs feel to play, so a mechanical argument of "you're only losing out on 0.001% damage" isn't going to help if they FEEL the Job feels bad to play post-change,
3) This doesn't actually require more buttons - like my WHM pitches didn't add a single button but all made for more involved rotations.

EDIT:

"Medica II Mage" refers to healers who doesn't know the correct answer to X mechanic---they only toss out Medica II/Succor/Asp Helios/E.Prog/whatever their comfort button are, then hope for the best. Literally only you who's so focused on this semantic & refuse to read between the line for whatever reason.

Because it's a caricature.

No serious person is going to bring up "Medica II Mage/Sylphie" in a conversation, just like no one should seriously bring up "DPS healer that never presses a single heal". Do these things both exist? Yes. But they aren't prevalent, and we shouldn't balance the game or make decisions based on these unicorns. Sylphies are in FAR shorter supply than people like you make them out to be.

All I was telling you was that people that spam only Medica II now would NOT be the people leaving the role if the role became spamming Media II. This is so obvious, I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point. It's like saying people that play BLM as "Ice Mages" would be the first to quit the Job if BLM was legitimately turned into Blizard-spam Mage. They'd be the LAST people leaving it.

Your argument is nonsensical.

If you mean they'd quit Savage raiding, maybe? But that's also inane; Medica 2 mages aren't doing Savage raiding RIGHT NOW. They can't quit a thing they aren't doing in the first place. Especially if the content was changed to literally accommodate their play style.

But this is a stupid side-show conversation.

You're literally arguing "If they change healing to where it is the way they already play, they'll all quit! But if we change healing to something they don't already do - more DPS buttons - they'll all totally keep doing it". I'm not even sure how to argue against something so divorced from...basic logic.

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As to the last sentence: Because I've been called a Sylphie by people here - I think even you - more than once. Thus using myself as example disproves your argument. Granted, I'm not really a Sylphie, but that doesn't seem to matter to the people calling me one.