G-give it Back T---T; !!

[CelestiCer]

I always saw kaiten itself AS the alternative use case for Kenki, which now really has no other use case. - Also bros come on with the "why not ask for something better?" Stuff. This is Square Enix. They don't give take something away and give back "something better." They take something away and best case scenario give it back in a mangled form.

This! Square does indeed not remove skills and then give them back in a more complex/changed manner for increase depth. Some seem to have missed the memo on how every expansion left most Jobs hollowed out, Samurai with 7 simplifications... getting Kaiten back would be a miracle and it's not un-reasonable request as it existed. Very easy to get back.

I disagree with Reinhardt's notion of Kaiten having to be more " multipurpose " since they argued that already at the DPS subsection. Clearly as Non-Samurai player as well, so excuse me if I sense bad faith... It existing prevented Shinten spam gameplay so Functionally, Aesthetically and Thematically to build up to big hits was already multipurpose. Yet... why is Kaiten put under scrutiny to be something completely different when brought back as an overused argument? Like how has that worked out for Dark Arts, Aero III and so many other skills where it not only should come back but also alter how your entire skill-kit works? ( what in the... )

" That Honda Civic you took?... I want it back... and have it be able to transform from a Car? into a boat Plane? with build-in probably not so functioning jacuzzi when changed into a Trike, Get on it!! " <- like what?

Asking Square/Dev's and Co something back how it worked? Is more realistic as they proven to have done that before. After SMN rework? Seeing something new and unproven be implemented from what they have removed? You can tell I'm not very optimistic... vs asking something back I know exactly of what I should get back. Not everything has to be multi-purpose, a spoon/fork/knife work perfectly fine as they is... Not everything has to be a battery powered pocket knife with build in " spork "

[Zairava]

what in the...[/B] )

Dark Arts modifying abilities to give them another effect and/or making them stronger was literally how Dark Arts worked.

[AnotherPerson]

This! Square does indeed not remove skills and then give them back in a more complex/changed manner for increase depth. Some seem to have missed the memo on how every expansion left most Jobs hollowed out, Samurai with 7 simplifications... getting Kaiten back would be a miracle and it's not un-reasonable request as it existed. Very easy to get back.

It's reasonable to request it, and very reasonable to justify it, but it's unreasonable to think it's very easy to get back based on their history of changes. Just look at healer simplification over the years with DPS and tanks complaining healers don't heal enough even though healer actually do heal, to the point tanks/dps got even more self-sustain/party-sustain that can invalidate healers and healers hasn't gotten anything back in the DPS/support side in response to even lowered healing requirements. Perfectly unreasonable to think it's very easy to get back no matter how simple the request is. The whole reason why it got removed is because crit variance was too big on Samurai, even though they don't say it is (hence the huge rebalance on DPS towards all of Samurai's skills). If it's balanced but functional at the cost of "fun", then they won't change it because lackluster gameplay is subjective, even if the previous majority of players who main that role did enjoy that aspect that was removed. The job gameplay has to be completely broken for them to change anything (see: SCH actually cannot function without Energy Drain in ShB launch or it runs out of MP back then so it was given back) or the entire playerbase has to agree with it (and I mean near 0 dissenting voices and trolls).

[Zairava]

It's reasonable to request it, and very reasonable to justify it, but it's unreasonable to think it's very easy to get back based on their history of changes. Just look at healer simplification over the years with DPS and tanks complaining healers don't heal enough even though healer actually do heal, to the point tanks/dps got even more self-sustain/party-sustain that can invalidate healers and healers hasn't gotten anything back in the DPS/support side in response to even lowered healing requirements. Perfectly unreasonable to think it's very easy to get back no matter how simple the request is. The whole reason why it got removed is because crit variance was too big on Samurai, even though they don't say it is (hence the huge rebalance on DPS towards all of Samurai's skills). If it's balanced but functional at the cost of "fun", then they won't change it because lackluster gameplay is subjective, even if the previous majority of players who main that role did enjoy that aspect that was removed. The job gameplay has to be completely broken for them to change anything (see: SCH actually cannot function without Energy Drain in ShB launch or it runs out of MP back then so it was given back) or the entire playerbase has to agree with it (and I mean near 0 dissenting voices and trolls).

Agree with everything except with what I bolded. Even that reason doesn't hold water. If they wanted to reduce it in this fashion, they literally could have done it by making Kaiten give Iaijutsu guaranteed crits along with the potency changes.

[Shurrikhan]

The whole reason why [Kaiten] got removed is because crit variance was too big on Samurai, even though they don't say it is (hence the huge rebalance on DPS towards all of Samurai's skills).

Removing Kaiten, in itself, had absolutely no effect on crit variance.

If I have a skill that increases another skill's damage by 50% (Kaiten), it is no more subject to crit variance than if that original skill just dealt 50% more damage in itself (no Kaiten) and the of the kit is tuned around the reduced opportunity cost in Kenki.

Moreover, Kaiten itself could have just instead guaranteed the critical hit, for --shocked Pikachu face-- roughly the same damage bonus.

If crit variance were the reason for the change, we would have simply swapped "Increases damage dealt by next weaponskill by 50%" for "Guarantees a critical hit on your next weaponskill. Its damage increases with your critical hit chance" and been done, with at most a bit of Namikiri potency shaved off in favor of Shoha in order to balance out the impact that'd have on SkS's relative value.

[AnotherPerson]

Removing Kaiten, in itself, had absolutely no effect on crit variance.

If I have a skill that increases another skill's damage by 50% (Kaiten), it is no more subject to crit variance than if that original skill just dealt 50% more damage in itself (no Kaiten) and the of the kit is tuned around the reduced opportunity cost in Kenki.

Moreover, Kaiten itself could have just instead guaranteed the critical hit, for --shocked Pikachu face-- roughly the same damage bonus.

If crit variance were the reason for the change, we would have simply swapped "Increases damage dealt by next weaponskill by 50%" for "Guarantees a critical hit on your next weaponskill. Its damage increases with your critical hit chance" and been done, with at most a bit of Namikiri potency shaved off in favor of Shoha in order to balance out the impact that'd have on SkS's relative value.

Oh, nevermind then. I recall hearing people saying Kaiten's damage boost caused a huge gap in Sam's performance, resulting in crit variance actually breaking DSR balance depending whether Sam crits or misses. Hence a portion of the changes were to guarantee crit to stabilize performance and balance, but I guess I recalled incorrectly. I figured even if they did change Kaiten to "guarantee a critical hit", the reasoning behind "removing button bloat" wouldn't then make sense for the changes... not like it made sense in the first place when Shoha & Shoha II exist.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh, nevermind then. I recall hearing people saying Kaiten's damage boost caused a huge gap in Sam's performance, resulting in crit variance actually breaking DSR balance depending whether Sam crits or misses. Hence a portion of the changes were to guarantee crit to stabilize performance and balance, but I guess I recalled incorrectly. I figured even if they did change Kaiten to "guarantee a critical hit", the reasoning behind "removing button bloat" wouldn't then make sense for the changes... not like it made sense in the first place when Shoha & Shoha II exist.

Again, their rationale for removing Kaiten was the same as for removing Power Surge from Dragoon: "Action Bloat". And they're right, it was action bloat.

The problems were that (A) virtually no SAMs complained about "action bloat", let alone from Kaiten (comments were focused instead on "button bloat"), (B) rather than revitalizing the tool to make it more interesting, they just removed it outright, and (C) was that they did nothing to address the (especially, trickle-down) effects removing it would have on gameplay.

[Shinkuno]

Again, their rationale for removing Kaiten was the same as for removing Power Surge from Dragoon: "Action Bloat". And they're right, it was action bloat.

The problems were that (A) virtually no SAMs complained about "action bloat", let alone from Kaiten (comments were focused instead on "button bloat"), (B) rather than revitalizing the tool to make it more interesting, they just removed it outright, and (C) was that they did nothing to address the (especially, trickle-down) effects removing it would have on gameplay.

The reality is: controller holds this game back. Simply as that. Everytime they want to give us something new (and they "need" to do it every expanion) they have to remove something else since controller has hit its button limit in HW. We wont get Kaiten back if at all until like 2-3 expansions when they rip another skill out of the kit to be replaced with something else.

[Shurrikhan]

The reality is: controller holds this game back. Simply as that. Everytime they want to give us something new (and they "need" to do it every expanion) they have to remove something else since controller has hit its button limit in HW. We wont get Kaiten back if at all until like 2-3 expansions when they rip another skill out of the kit to be replaced with something else.

I can pretty comfortably and quite responsively hit 48 buttons without even losing movement control by claw-gripping a Dualshock controller, which is technically better than I can say for KB where I will occasionally be (very briefly) unable to access WASD while hitting something else and will therefore need to lock camera. Controllers don't hold us back any more than keyboard. It's just a matter of people needing to learn to use their modifier keys.

Both could have their functionality improved, to be clear, but neither are bottlenecking our available number of actions at this time (nor are they likely to for another 10-12 actions added).

Which is also a separate issue altogether from button bloat as it exists now. Present button bloat isn't a problem of having more buttons than we can responsively press, but rather just that certain procedures could provide an equal or greater amount of choice and agency without using up as many buttons as they do now.

[BaconBits]

Controller has access to 48 buttons with expanded controls and WXHB :/, people that use default hotbars on controller are just 1heads.