G-give it Back T---T; !!

[CelestiCer]

If the button was too hard for you to use you could just not use it ^^

And that's the beauty of it. Like " Reimmi " mentions and I agree, if you don't want to master Kaiten and it's Kenki management? that is completely fine as players won't need to when they wish to clear 95% of all existing content. Hell even for the last 5% of hardcore endgame raiding it isn't even necessary to fully master it to perfection as DPS checks are made more leniant, it is optional mastery to pool Kenki perfectly with the extra Layer Kaiten provided that can be applied to all content and that is " satisfying "...

Although " Valkyrie's " point doesn't make sense... since Hissatsu: Kaiten management and it even existing? actually provided less spam in our rotation due to it providing another Kenki spender. The meme that its a button you press every time to downplay Kaiten as spam? ironically now that it doesn't exist means our gameplay has devolved into 1/5th of our Samurai rotation being Shinten Spamming. Kaiten never amounted to the same shallowness of Shinten spam, of which no one seems to advocate for it when they want to argue Kaiten away. No one cause we all know what we have now is truly dumb as bricks!!

Whenever it suits their narrative? Kaiten somehow is always to easy to handle yet simultaneously to difficult to handle? somehow always button bloat, somehow the only button we press every-time out every existing Job and Skill that exists in any Jobs rotation and somehow always the only skill regarded as spam when they want to argue Kaiten away... And yet they never put any other Samurai skill to the same level of scrutiny when they blast Kaiten's design ( i.e Shinten ) without knowing what they are talking about because shocker? they probably don't play Samurai. I want it back... " Give back my Kaiten " mhm

[CelestiCer]

[Atelier-Bagur]

Yoshida no swiping! Yoshida no swiping! YOSHIDA NO- <swipes kaiten>...swiping..

"Haha youre tooo late! You'll never find it now!"

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

If the button was too hard for you to use you could just not use it ^^

Sigh... noone ever said Kaiten was difficult to press let alone manage any ressources for.

What is being repeatedly said is that Kaiten was essentially a button you press before Iaijutsu 100% of times and never press it on any other GCD 100% of times since at that point Shinten (and previously Seigan) had more ppg (potency per gaugecost).

Yes Shinten spam is boring, yes losing Seigan is a tragedy and I also can understand the satisfaction of the twirling animation and the idea of boosting/changing your next attack. But with Kaiten there was no alternative usecase, you always used it before Iaijutsu and never used it anywhere else in realistic scenarios. Shinten and Seigan you could at least shift where in your timeline you used them as long as you didn't overcap Kenki or went too low on burst window.

If Kaiten was transforming how Iaijutsus or skills in general behaved, THAT would be cool, that is what the PvP version does and what I'd enjoy having on Samurai. But the old version just is a "Shinten you press before Iaijutsus, everytime without question" so I understand why people don't care and don't want it back when there are others that do want it back.

[Reimmi]

Sigh... noone ever said Kaiten was difficult to press let alone manage any ressources for.

What is being repeatedly said is that Kaiten was essentially a button you press before Iaijutsu 100% of times and never press it on any other GCD 100% of times since at that point Shinten (and previously Seigan) had more ppg (potency per gaugecost).

Yes Shinten spam is boring, yes losing Seigan is a tragedy and I also can understand the satisfaction of the twirling animation and the idea of boosting/changing your next attack. But with Kaiten there was no alternative usecase, you always used it before Iaijutsu and never used it anywhere else in realistic scenarios. Shinten and Seigan you could at least shift where in your timeline you used them as long as you didn't overcap Kenki or went too low on burst window.

If Kaiten was transforming how Iaijutsus or skills in general behaved, THAT would be cool, that is what the PvP version does and what I'd enjoy having on Samurai. But the old version just is a "Shinten you press before Iaijutsus, everytime without question" so I understand why people don't care and don't want it back when there are others that do want it back.

The skill cap was lowered by removing it, it literally made kenki management matter, cause if you over used your filler spender you wouldnt be able to use it.
Just because it was always used doesn't mean it was a bad thing, aetherflow is always used before energy drain, should we remove that?
Life surge is always used before a big hit for dragoon, same thing.

I dont think comparing to pvp is a good idea either because if we go to 4 buttons in our rotation in pve i'm quitting instantly lmao, that works in pvp cause encounters are short, but the game would be so god damn boring with that few buttons

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

The skill cap was lowered by removing it, it literally made kenki management matter, cause if you over used your filler spender you wouldnt be able to use it.
Just because it was always used doesn't mean it was a bad thing, aetherflow is always used before energy drain, should we remove that?
Life surge is always used before a big hit for dragoon, same thing.

I dont think comparing to pvp is a good idea either because if we go to 4 buttons in our rotation in pve i'm quitting instantly lmao, that works in pvp cause encounters are short, but the game would be so god damn boring with that few buttons

Yes the skillcap was lowered and I lament it. As someone who plays Dark Knight I find pooling a ressource for a task rather than overspending a good mechanic so I totally agree with you on it. But what I don't agree on is how you conflate other examples with Kaiten.

- Aetherflow is a ressource generator, not a skill transformator. The closest equivalent to that would be Ikishoten -> Ogi Namikiri combo + Shintens. Furthermore, the ressources get to be spent on either energy drain or (depending on what the fight needs) a variety of support utility like Sacred Soil.

- Life Surge is cooldown based, not ressource based. You use plenty of Heaven's Thrusts without Life Surge, you did not use a single Iaijutsu without Kaiten. Before it gets dropped - the same applies to Machinist Reassemble on Drill / Air Anchor / Chainsaw.

I understand your initial fear for anything related PvP, but you are missing the point why I'm bringing it up.

I specifically am only referrring to the Kaiten effect (that is currently on their dash) transforming your single target combo into AOE variants with different effects based on the combo step and nothing else about PvP so if you could stop kneejerk reacting just because I said "PvP" that'd be great. It doesn't have to be a CC, extra damage and a lifesteal but it could be other effects that aren't "press X before every Y everytime without question".

I miss pooling ressources for other skills other than Shinten. I and various others don't miss singular-purpose-only Kaiten. I am not sure how much clearer we can make it.

[CelestiCer]

... I and various others don't miss singular-purpose-only Kaiten. I am not sure how much clearer we can make it.

You lost me at the part where you actually played Samurai...

You didn't play it when we had Hissatsu: Kaiten, now its gone? You still don't play Samurai. For contrast and clarity? I literally play Samurai 24/7 on 3 Lv90 Samurai characters for Community service Raiding. Level boosted and MSQ skipped once, but had so much fun? I literally did this 3 times for the fun of it when I still had my skill kit not extra lobotomized without that all you can eat side dish of Shinten's. I can't be more of a Samurai player... and I am telling you? As a Samurai player... I want Hissatsu: Kaiten back, mhm

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

You lost me at the part where you actually played Samurai...

You didn't play it when we had Hissatsu: Kaiten, now its gone? You still don't play Samurai. For contrast and clarity? I literally play Samurai 24/7 on 3 Lv90 Samurai characters for Community service Raiding. Level boosted and MSQ skipped once, but had so much fun? I literally did this 3 times for the fun of it when I still had my skill kit not extra lobotomized without that all you can eat side dish of Shinten's. I can't be more of a Samurai player... and I am telling you? As a Samurai player... I want Hissatsu: Kaiten back, mhm

Why are you treating this so much like a "us vs them"? Am I as the main of another job not allowed to give reasonable takes on Kaiten? Does someone else who mained Samurai for longer than you have to be the one who said what I said?

I get it, you guys are pissed at the loss of Kaiten, but if other players literally can't give a single comment just because holier-than-thou Samurai veterans who MUST want Kaiten are the only people who are allowed to have a valid take, then you guys just want a glorified echo chamber with no discussion. Is this what you want? Gatekeeping and echo chambers?

I am f-ing sorry that I, a filthy tank player who had something similar to Kaiten (Dark Arts) give suggestions to what a more interesting Kaiten would be that has a better chance to be implemented than essentially reverting the entire thing from 6.1 for the heck of it. How f-ing DARE I to not just play Samurai for 6 years in Savage Raids to be qualified for even talking to you about Kaiten, god forbid I play tank.

Seriously, I am putting in every bit of effort trying to explain that I am not against Kaiten's readdition, but I if can't do that because job segregation based on veterancy matters more then you guys are over the moon.

[SaberMaxwell]

I always saw kaiten itself AS the alternative use case for Kenki, which now really has no other use case.

Also bros come on with the "why not ask for something better?" Stuff. This is Square Enix. They don't give take something away and give back "something better." They take something away and best case scenario give it back in a mangled form. MCH ammo? Gone. MCH heat? Basically gone especially compared to what it was.

Dark Arts? Energy Drain? Heavy Thrust? Summoner as a whole?

Nobody is gonna ask for "something better than kaiten" because just getting kaiten back itself would be a miracle at this point. Also most of people's suggestions for replacements for kaiten either require overhauls for the job in a positive direction (ha!) Or overhauls of the entire game's combat system (Hahahaha!) And some only just...do the same thing Kaiten did in the first place which was make you think twice about kenki expenditure, and do nothing to tie kenki to iaijutsu in the same way that kaiten did.

So I mean sure, ask for better. I guess. I'm pretty thoroughly meteion-pilled though, and know that even just asking for kaiten back unharmed is asking for a miracle while winning powerball while getting hit by lightning.

[Zairava]

Why are you treating this so much like a "us vs them"? Am I as the main of another job not allowed to give reasonable takes on Kaiten? Does someone else who mained Samurai for longer than you have to be the one who said what I said?

I get it, you guys are pissed at the loss of Kaiten, but if other players literally can't give a single comment just because holier-than-thou Samurai veterans who MUST want Kaiten are the only people who are allowed to have a valid take, then you guys just want a glorified echo chamber with no discussion. Is this what you want? Gatekeeping and echo chambers?

I am f-ing sorry that I, a filthy tank player who had something similar to Kaiten (Dark Arts) give suggestions to what a more interesting Kaiten would be that has a better chance to be implemented than essentially reverting the entire thing from 6.1 for the heck of it. How f-ing DARE I to not just play Samurai for 6 years in Savage Raids to be qualified for even talking to you about Kaiten, god forbid I play tank.

Seriously, I am putting in every bit of effort trying to explain that I am not against Kaiten's readdition, but I if can't do that because job segregation based on veterancy matters more then you guys are over the moon.

I'm completely for Kaiten's readdition, they could bring it back and change literally nothing, even just make iaijutsu guaranteed crit and I would immediately start playing the job again. I haven't really touched Samurai outside of whacking a striking dummy then deciding it just feels incomplete now, but I gotta say I'm siding with Reinhardt here.

As they mentioned, us DRK mains (if painfully maining it) lost something similar to Kaiten, namely Dark Arts. (They were/are not used the same, before anyone harps on me about that). The loss of it along with the changes moving forward into 5.0 more or less neutered what what we should have, MP management.

Kaiten could be made something more interesting, we've seen that capability from old Dark Arts. Thinking that they want the skill-cap to be reduced and that it's better that it's gone is ludicrous. You don't need to go on a tirade about veterancy about it. Now whether CBU3 actually makes it more interesting, let alone give it back...is another story. They brought Bulwark back, so I suppose there's some hope?