G-give it Back T---T; !!

[Renalt]

I just want Kaiten back for you guys. I don't even play SAM but you guys and more clearly want it so why not put it back in as it was?

[Renathras]

I just want Kaiten back for you guys. I don't even play SAM but you guys and more clearly want it so why not put it back in as it was?

This is my position as well.

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them), but I personally don't care. If it made people happy, give it back to them? As long as it isn't making a bunch of other people upset, what's the harm? No one hurt, lots more happy, win-win/net positive.

[Deo14]

This is my position as well.

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them), but I personally don't care. If it made people happy, give it back to them? As long as it isn't making a bunch of other people upset, what's the harm? No one hurt, lots more happy, win-win/net positive.

I won't disagree with that, but I really hope that you're not speaking about yourself when you said "even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them". You've made single argument in the DPS subforum, and that is that there are "well thought out counters to it having been removed" from theory crafters and guide makers. I've asked you for the source in like 4 instances in span of 2 days, do you mind finally linking them, or did you just made it up without any source? Come on, just link it, I want to have a good laugh about what some theory crafters and guide makers think about job design.

[Renathras]

I won't disagree with that, but I really hope that you're not speaking about yourself when you said "even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them". You've made single argument in the DPS subforum, and that is that there are "well thought out counters to it having been removed" from theory crafters and guide makers. I've asked you for the source in like 4 instances in span of 2 days, do you mind finally linking them, or did you just made it up without any source? Come on, just link it, I want to have a good laugh about what some theory crafters and guide makers think about job design.

Nice way to try framing the conversation.

For those interested, Deo is referencing this thread, feel free to go there and tell her what you think personally: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...lay-FF14-again

Because I didn't outright say "Yeah, everyone agrees, add Kaiten back!" and pointed out that there are people who disagree, I DARED to challenge "unanimity", she's spent about 5 pages of that thread in increasingly unhinged baby attacks, trying to bring up other threads, and even though her initial post to me was about a technicality, she later claimed I was the one arguing technicalities. In order to save face, she's now bringing up other threads and discussions from other parts of the forum, posting memes, deriding my posts, and trying to change the subject instead of just admitting her initial actions were wrong.

And when I pointed out she doesn't want links in good faith so it's a waste of my time to post them, she even proves me right here "I want to have a good laugh about" it. She has no interest in seriously considering it NOR about admitting that support for Katien being returned isn't universal.

And the thing is, she's picking a fight with me while I'm literally saying to give her what she wants.

Not only will she not take the L, she won't take yes for an answer.

That's the kind of unhinged we're working with. For once I agree with Twinpeaks and AwesomeJr.

[Deo14]

Nice way to try framing the conversation.

For those interested, Deo is referencing this thread, feel free to go there and tell her what you think personally: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...lay-FF14-again

Because I didn't outright say "Yeah, everyone agrees, add Kaiten back!" and pointed out that there are people who disagree, I DARED to challenge "unanimity", she's spent about 5 pages of that thread in increasingly unhinged baby attacks, trying to bring up other threads, and even though her initial post to me was about a technicality, she later claimed I was the one arguing technicalities. In order to save face, she's now bringing up other threads and discussions from other parts of the forum, posting memes, deriding my posts, and trying to change the subject instead of just admitting her initial actions were wrong.

And when I pointed out she doesn't want links in good faith so it's a waste of my time to post them, she even proves me right here "I want to have a good laugh about" it. She has no interest in seriously considering it NOR about admitting that support for Katien being returned isn't universal.

And the thing is, she's picking a fight with me while I'm literally saying to give her what she wants.

Not only will she not take the L, she won't take yes for an answer.

That's the kind of unhinged we're working with. For once I agree with Twinpeaks and AwesomeJr.

I said "pretty much unanimously", yet you somehow made whole argument that I was saying that every 100% of players agrees with it. Also, there was other person in the thread who wanted those links, so just link it not for me, but for her? And yes, I don't want those links in good faith, I know I'll just laugh reading them, just like you wanted links for my data back in "Just quit" thread in a bad faith, except that I did give them to you, and then you discredited them.

Just some interesting info for others - this guy doesn't even have leveled SAM.

[AwesomeJr44]

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them)

You can't disagree with these people, they're a cult. My position is literally just "why not add an even better button to replace Kaiten" and they still act like a swarm of angry hornets because it wouldn't bring back the object of their obsession. Let me repeat that again. They are against an even better and more interesting version of Kaiten because it's not the thing that they spent a year obsessing over.

This is literally just wanting something only because you can't have it.

[CelestiCer]

You can't disagree with these people, they're a cult. My position is literally just "why not add an even better button to replace Kaiten" and they still act like a swarm of angry hornets because it wouldn't bring back the object of their obsession. Let me repeat that again. They are against an even better and more interesting version of Kaiten because it's not the thing that they spent a year obsessing over.

This is literally just wanting something only because you can't have it.

Simply because I'll repeat it again...

They can remove anything and replace it with Nothing. So they removed Kaiten? and replaced it with Nothing. To willingly accept giving up anything in exchange for something better? is accepting an empty promise as that something better might never arrive as we're still waiting. In fact? that might be the case for other Jobs even more then ours... I am against SE/Dev's and Co's bad decisions that affected gameplay they lost and liked. For the future if you ask me, I'd rather Square not remove anything from any Job? unless they have something new or better immediately to show for it to replace it with. Instead of like you said... waiting years for nothing, as Kaiten removal fixed and improved absolutely nothing.

Personally.. I think the obsession around
obsessing about others obsessions is more obsessive
then my own passion mislabeled as obsession
by obsessive obsessionists.

[AwesomeJr44]

They can remove anything and replace it with Nothing. So they removed Kaiten? and replaced it with Nothing.

Which was stupid on the devs part. I don't even disagree with you on this.

To willingly accept giving up anything in exchange for something better? is accepting an empty promise as that something better might never arrive as we're still waiting.

Asking for a better Kaiten replacement has an equally low chance of working as asking for Kaiten back does, so if we're going to spend a year constantly asking for something, why the worse option of the two?

I am against SE/Dev's and Co's bad decisions that affected gameplay they lost and liked. For the future if you ask me, I'd rather Square not remove anything from any Job? unless they have something new or better immediately to show for it to replace it with.

I literally agree. DRK has the same problem where it needs to wait eons to get much needed changes that people were asking for for years.

However, you don't see me going into threads that have nothing to do with gameplay design to mention the removal of things like Dark Arts. If the constant mentioning of Kaiten was supposed to be a joke, it was funny the first few times you did it, but the joke's been worn out.

I'm literally not disagreeing that Kaiten's removal was a problem. Shinten spam absolutely sucks. The two things we disagree on is that I think we should ask for a better replacement than just bringing Kaiten back, and that I don't think that spamming threads/posts about it for this long is healthy. Again, if you think that this is still a relevant topic, at least spam it on the DPS forums where it might get seen.

Personally.. I think the obsession around
obsessing about others obsessions is more obsessive
then my own passion mislabeled as obsession
by obsessive obsessionists.

Tell me which is more obsessive.
1) Making Kaiten whining posts for at least months. (Again I'm not checking to see if it's been longer)
2) Pointing out #1 in two threads over the course of a few days.

If you choose #2, then I'm sorry but that's pure copium. You guys are acting like a cult, and the object of your worship is a single button that got removed from a video game. I want SAM to be a more interesting and fun job, I just don't agree with the Kaiten worship. Call me a heretic if you want, but it just wasn't THAT good of a button where we need to have this level of devotion to it for an entire year.

[CelestiCer]

W-Was making a T-Shirt out of c-cope (obviously)
What do you t-think? mhm...

[DixieBellOCE]

You can't disagree with these people, they're a cult. My position is literally just "why not add an even better button to replace Kaiten" and they still act like a swarm of angry hornets because it wouldn't bring back the object of their obsession. Let me repeat that again. They are against an even better and more interesting version of Kaiten because it's not the thing that they spent a year obsessing over.

This is literally just wanting something only because you can't have it.

Personally i liked Kaiten, it added a small amount of decision making to the rotation.

If they wanted to cull button bloat, all they had to do was combine Shota/Shota2 into a single target+cleave and it would have made the same difference in bloat that removing Kaiten did.

The current state of SAM players in savage is enough to show how low the skill ceiling for samurai is now, you can play like hot garbage and still do well, because the class no longer allows for meaningful decision making, and you just dump your job bar whenever you have it.