I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[LilimoLimomo]

Then you missed the point of the bit from ForsakenRoe that I quoted.

You can always carve out a simple DPS style from any kit. Indeed, even Black Mage, the hallowed "complex" caster, illustrates the point: "The standard rotation is more than sufficient to play at a high level of Black Mage." You want to play BLM but don't want to deal with transpose lines zaniness for a theoretical few percent more damage? Then don't. Focus on doing the basics well.

I fail to see how that same philosophy and approach can't be applied to healers. Allowing room for complexity takes nothing away from those who prefer something non-complex.

I see what you're saying, and if this were a single-player game, I'd agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, it's an MMO where plenty of players feel entitled to expect other players to not just do good enough, but to excel (or at least be trying to excel). Which is to say, if you aren't using all of your DPS buttons, you can expect a certain kind of player to get on your case. As a designer, you can largely mitigate this kind of conflict by providing options to players that align with their play preferences; because if you only have one DPS button, nobody can reasonably to criticize you for not using two DPS buttons.

[Renathras]

A more thoughtful reaction would be: why not? Just as DPS jobs offer both SMN (simple) and BLM (complex), maybe there should be a single healer job that adds that complexity for players who want something more involved to diddle with between heals.

If you ever visit the healer forums, I pitch this argument all the time. I call it the "4 Healers Model", which in a nutshell is "We have 4 healer Jobs, so why not make them play differently so they can appeal to different types? Leave one as it is, change 3 to variations so that people who want more complexity have options?" The typical way I pitch this is "Leave WHM as it is today, give SCH its SB damage kit back, give AST it's SB/HW Cards and extra effects (Time Dilation, etc) back and more party buffs to make it a buffer support, and give SGE a Caster-esque rotation like SMN or RDM have where Kardia procs for more and their gameplay is about efficiently using Kardia while properly performing its damage rotation. This way, every type of player would have a healer Job they can main and enjoy."

I get called LOTS of names in there and am the subject of near constant dogpiles - to the point the common Healer forum posters will dogpile on me in any other part of the forum now, such as General or the Tank or DPS forums - since they don't like the idea of a compromise that has even one healer Job still appealing to people that like healing as it is today.

They're inflexible and uncompromising and don't realize it, but I genuinely think that would be the best solution. And yeah, I use both Caster and Ranged and Tanks as examples - SMN vs RDM vs BLM, DNC vs BRD vs MCH, WAR vs PLD vs DRK vs GNB. They insist that ALL healers must be more complex or no deal. And when I point out "no deal" means the status quo and we stay with what we have now, they go ballistic.

They also like insisting that their complexity won't affect people that don't like complexity...but we all know that isn't true, as you said well here:

I see what you're saying, and if this were a single-player game, I'd agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, it's an MMO where plenty of players feel entitled to expect other players to not just do good enough, but to excel (or at least be trying to excel). Which is to say, if you aren't using all of your DPS buttons, you can expect a certain kind of player to get on your case. As a designer, you can largely mitigate this kind of conflict by providing options to players that align with their play preferences; because if you only have one DPS button, nobody can reasonably to criticize you for not using two DPS buttons.

In short - I agree with you. Why not? Why not have a healer Job (or even two or three) that add complexity for those players that want it? As long as at least one is still enjoyable to the people that like current healing, this shouldn't' be a problem and everyone wins. (Except the people that want ALL healers to be more complex and won't be satisfied until people that don't like complex DPS on a HEALER class are out in the cold.)

[LilimoLimomo]

I get called LOTS of names in there and am the subject of near constant dogpiles - to the point the common Healer forum posters will dogpile on me in any other part of the forum now, such as General or the Tank or DPS forums - since they don't like the idea of a compromise that has even one healer Job still appealing to people that like healing as it is today.

For what it's worth, even when I don't agree with you I like reading what you write here, as you tend to be one of the more reasonable users here. I appreciate that you provide your reasoning, tend to acknowledge and value a diversity of perspectives, and try to stimulate genuine good faith discussion. ^^

[IDontPetLalas]

I see what you're saying, and if this were a single-player game, I'd agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, it's an MMO where plenty of players feel entitled to expect other players to not just do good enough, but to excel (or at least be trying to excel). Which is to say, if you aren't using all of your DPS buttons, you can expect a certain kind of player to get on your case. As a designer, you can largely mitigate this kind of conflict by providing options to players that align with their play preferences; because if you only have one DPS button, nobody can reasonably to criticize you for not using two DPS buttons.

First of all, that's a scenario that could be applied to any job. Tank isn't using their mitigation? Sure, we can "get on their case" so that the tank remembers to rotate/use their CDs. Tank forgets to turn the boss so the party isn't cleaved- similar story when half of them drop to the floor. What if the DPS isn't using any AOE skills in a W2W - similar story.

We don't take the approach of saying "take out all the DPS skills for tanks except one AOE and a single target, give them plenty of mitigation, self heals and mob controls so they don't get stressed over exceling at their rotation"

As I said previously and have seen for myself, in "normal" content a healer can literally do no - zero- DPS and no one will say anything- first of all because the content is still completed, and secondly because people likely are aware that the TOS constrains how this type of request can be made. So they don't say anything. So one button, two button, a proc, a combo- that wouldn't change unless it is in the content where it matters- and those healers already hit their DPS buttons and heal.

[AmiableApkallu]

I see what you're saying, and if this were a single-player game, I'd agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, it's an MMO where plenty of players feel entitled to expect other players to not just do good enough, but to excel (or at least be trying to excel). Which is to say, if you aren't using all of your DPS buttons, you can expect a certain kind of player to get on your case. As a designer, you can largely mitigate this kind of conflict by providing options to players that align with their play preferences; because if you only have one DPS button, nobody can reasonably to criticize you for not using two DPS buttons.

In 27+ months of playing FFXIV, that is literally something that's never happened to me, and something that I've never had to worry about.

I've run content with my FC-mates, several of whom are obviously on-content Savage raiders. (It's obvious from the gear and mounts they're sporting, even if they don't say anything.) Not once have I heard them remark on anyone's DPS, let alone the healers'. For the healers -- It's always, "Here's a good time to use Temperance." Or, "Here's a good time for Lilybell/Panhaima." Or when a few members of the party are tanking the floor, "F everyone else, just keep yourself alive for 10 seconds, and then LB3."

Every reasonable player I've ever encountered pushes the healers in the party to keep themselves alive and then to keep party alive. Healer DPS is the lowest priority.

In the end, it is true that FFXIV players expect healers to excel... at actually healing and keeping the party alive. If they can do DPS, that's an added bonus.

[vetch]

In 27+ months of playing FFXIV, that is literally something that's never happened to me, and something that I've never had to worry about.

I've run content with my FC-mates, several of whom are obviously on-content Savage raiders. (It's obvious from the gear and mounts they're sporting, even if they don't say anything.) Not once have I heard them remark on anyone's DPS, let alone the healers'. For the healers -- It's always, "Here's a good time to use Temperance." Or, "Here's a good time for Lilybell/Panhaima." Or when a few members of the party are tanking the floor, "F everyone else, just keep yourself alive for 10 seconds, and then LB3."

Every reasonable player I've ever encountered pushes the healers in the party to keep themselves alive and then to keep party alive. Healer DPS is the lowest priority.

In the end, it is true that FFXIV players expect healers to excel... at actually healing and keeping the party alive. If they can do DPS, that's an added bonus.

I was lectured by a party member about doing 0 healer DPS while leveling my very first healer in Brayflox Longstop a month or two after starting the game. If we're contributing personal anecdotes.

[IDontPetLalas]

I was lectured by a party member about doing 0 healer DPS while leveling my very first healer in Brayflox Longstop a month or two after starting the game. If we're contributing personal anecdotes.

OK, so don't keep us in suspense. That's only part of the story, first of all , who gave you the lecture, and what happened after that?

[vetch]

OK, so don't keep us in suspense. That's only part of the story, first of all , who gave you the lecture, and what happened after that?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Nobody else said anything. I snarked at the person a bit and then we finished the dungeon.

If by chance you're supposing they earned a black mark on their account for violating the TOS, well, they didn't get one from me and neither of the other party members seemed to care.

[IDontPetLalas]

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Nobody else said anything. I snarked at the person a bit and then we finished the dungeon.

If by chance you're supposing they earned a black mark on their account for violating the TOS, well, they didn't get one from me and neither of the other party members seemed to care.

It was a simple question as you didn't provide any information on: the way the remark was phrased (e.g. was it helpful, was it abrupt), whether anyone else said anything, whether you said anything, whether you found it helpful (or not), whether you modified anything (or not).

Up to you on how much you wanted to provide, however without at least some of the above (and not being there) it's rather difficult to understand the circumstances, nor was I speculating regarding any violation of the TOS. I wasn't doubting that it happened, before anyone raises that question.

[vetch]

It was a simple question as you didn't provide any information on: the way the remark was phrased (e.g. was it helpful, was it abrupt), whether anyone else said anything, whether you said anything, whether you found it helpful (or not), whether you modified anything (or not).

Up to you on how much you wanted to provide, however without at least some of the above (and not being there) it's rather difficult to understand the circumstances, nor was I speculating regarding any violation of the TOS. I wasn't doubting that it happened, before anyone raises that question.

Ah.

It was quite abrupt. I didn't consider it helpful at the time but in hindsight they were correct; I was anticipating a lot more incoming damage than was actually happening and didn't need to conserve MP nearly as much as I was.

My point in bringing it up was that there are absolutely people commenting on healer DPS performance and not just whether they're keeping the party alive, so I wasn't thinking of the things you're asking for as relevant. Sorry.