Latest Official Developer Statements About Healer DPS?

[Renathras]

They completely changed stance. P8S before nerf wouldve been 100% impossible to clear without healer DPS imo.

You can't use P8S before the nerf since they explicitly said it was tuned too high and shouldn't have been.

We know this isn't true because of raids like E8S being mathematically impossible to clear on patch without healers doing DPS, even in top 1% optimized speedrun environments.

This is more the issue. It may not be INTENDED, but it seems to be true. But:

I'm aware of remarks from 2021.

...this is the stated position.

Given all of this...

I'm just curious to know what the devs have officially said about this sort of thing. Thanks for the help on that!

...I think the reality is that Yoshi P and the Devs don't want Healers to have to deal damage. Any fights that actually REQUIRE it in order to clear on patch are probably accidents/overtuned/unintended given all the statements, including the 2021 ones, to the contrary. The most charitable (to the DPS argument) way to look at it is that they want Healers to have an easy DPS "rotation" so they can easily achieve whatever DPS needs (if any) the encounters assume Healers will contribute. At worst to that argument, it means that they don't intend encounters to require Healer DPS and don't tune for it, so any Healer DPS at all is a bonus for the party.

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EDIT:

That quote from 2021 should be taken with a humongous grain of salt. I would find it interesting to know how really "unique" Sage feels to an experienced healer ? I would say that while it has some nice animations, it's not really really so distinct from the other healers.

You can somewhat question my skill, but I've been healing in MMOs since the early 2000s. SGE feels pretty different to SCH. Nizzi made a good breakdown of this on the healer forum here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6309157

SGE is far more mobile, but its healing is also much more responsive while SCH's kit is more powerful but requires more forethought. Even their DPS optimizations are different and in kind of opposite directions; SGE has damage neutral (or even positive) movement options while SCH's movement tool is a damage loss, SCH has a weaving DPS option at the cost of healing and mitigation resources while SGE has an independent GCD damage gain but requires near-melee range and its healing/mitigation resource is exslusively for healing/mitigation, and SGE has a strong bomb party heal (that's again damage neutral) while SCH has a direct damage loss but extremely powerful party barrier combo. SGE is more light and responsive but a bit weaker for that agility, while SCH has more weight and clunk but also more power.

They're alike on paper from a 10,000 foot overview (that also handwaves away some differences that are kind of important), but on the ground level, they play completely differently, imo.

[Jeeqbit]

That quote from 2021 should be taken with a humongous grain of salt. I would find it interesting to know how really "unique" Sage feels to an experienced healer ?

Unique hah. It is a copy and paste of Scholar. I literally got my Scholar hotbar, copied it over and replaced it with Sage's version of the same actions.

What is unique about it is the gap closer, buffing heal potency instead of applying the Aetherpact regen because you already have a person as your target and being able to choose who gets your auto-heals instead of it being a priority system. Using your gauge on heals doesn't take away from DPS like it does on Scholar.

[ASkellington]

...I think the reality is that Yoshi P and the Devs don't want Healers to have to deal damage. Any fights that actually REQUIRE it in order to clear on patch are probably accidents/overtuned/unintended given all the statements, including the 2021 ones, to the contrary.

I disagree with this statement.

I think its actually MORE likely that healer DPS is included for the good reason that, if it wasn't necessary you'd have more PF kicking healers who don't contribute to damage and making the instance faster. Because damage is king.

They may not want Healers to have to deal damage, but we do. Because we have nothing else to do by their garbage design. Ya'll (devs) seriously need to take any of the healers in high end content. You're that out of touch. Come talk to healer mains when you do Savage content on release as healer with a purple parse and then you can talk.

[Absurdity]

You can't use P8S before the nerf since they explicitly said it was tuned too high and shouldn't have been.

Then we can just use every other savage fight that doesn't have a joke of an enrage timer. E8S wasn't possible in crafted gear without healers dpsing either.

Could you beat some fights with the healers doing no damage? Maybe, but it would put an unnecessary burden on your DPS and potentially also your tanks to perform well above the average, healer dps is absolutely factored into the expected party damage.

That quote from 2021 should be taken with a humongous grain of salt. I would find it interesting to know how really "unique" Sage feels to an experienced healer ? I would say that while it has some nice animations, it's not really really so distinct from the other healers.

It's quite evident, every time they make public statements about jobs, that they're just really out of touch with a lot of aspects of their own game, Yoshi's comments about healers are just the most obvious ones.

Or they've become so isolated in their own mmo bubble that they actually think their design is the most creative and unique thing ever. That would make me a lot more worried because we've seen it before.

[Maltothoris]

If you want definitive proof that healer dps is included, look at the required ilvls. Here is the coils of Bahamut for example https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...ils_of_Bahamut So you can see the final fight's ilvl requirement is very close to the bis ilvl range such as first coil's 82 to 90, second coil 105 to 110 and final coil's 123 to 130. However as we've seen, Final Coil was cleared within the first week by 3 groups where none of them reached that ilvl because the additional dps of tanks outside their tank stance and healers doing dps as well. This then lead to gordias savage following second coil's progression (190>195>200>205).

We see the first change actually where they are probably more mindful of healer dps from Midas savage. The first fight is ilvl 215, second fight is 220, however both the third and the fourth fights were 225. If I recall correctly, they said the dps check were more lax in comparison to Gordias however, you would need vitality melds to survive the bigger hits in those fights. Creator Savage also follows the same rule as Midas. Also the crafted gear of both Midas and Creator were both 5 ilvls lower than the 3rd and fourth fights requirement,( The crafted gear for Midas was i220 https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...cton_of_Aiming and Creator crafted gear was i250 https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...ass_of_Fending

We seen the system that we are now currently in with Deltascape savage. The first fight ilvl was 310, the second fight 315 and the last two are 320. The crafted gear however is now i320. https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...obe_of_Healing.

Edit: You can see that this pattern from Deltascape happens all the other raid tiers. The first fight starts with the old bis ilvl from the previous tier just jumps up twice to match the new crafted gear that becomes available for that patch.

[Allegor]

I think its actually MORE likely that healer DPS is included for the good reason that, if it wasn't necessary you'd have more PF kicking healers who don't contribute to damage and making the instance faster. Because damage is king.

It's funny because that'd also imply they're aware there's not much healing to be done either. If a healer isn't healing much, but doesn't dps much either, what are they doing?

[Supersnow845]

We know coils was explicitly designed to not factor in healer DPS (and let’s be real half of coils didn’t even have hard enrages and the ones that do were so lax on their enrage check that nothing came remotely close)

Gordias was the point they started explicitly balancing with healer DPS in mind and they have done that ever since

If you are clearing a fight without healer DPS it both has a lax DPS check and you are also being carried by godly DPS players

[Noumenon]

They completely changed stance. P8S before nerf wouldve been 100% impossible to clear without healer DPS imo.

None of the late Savage fights are or were clearable at min ilvl or even 10 ilvls above min ilvl without healer DPS. It was wrong even in 2017.

Any fights that actually REQUIRE it in order to clear on patch are probably accidents/overtuned/unintended given all the statements

Is that why every single third and fourth floor Savage fight since Gordias are unclearable on patch at the intended ilvl? There is not a single exception.

[ForsakenRoe]

Hasn't there been maths done that show that you cannot clear Ultimate at all without healer damage contributions, and that to beat final Savage tunrs, you need a high-purple/orange team of tanks and DPS, in BIS (ie, needing the gear that comes from said Savage fight) to make up the difference in missing damage from healers?

Looking at my first clear of P12S in week 1, me and my cohealer had 5.6k and 5.9k RDPS respectively. Where are we meant to find 11k more damage, without getting BIS on EVERY player besides the healers, if 'Healers are not expected to deal damage'? For the statement to be true in current raid design, this is the differential a group would have to overcome. It might have been true back in ARR, but it sure as heck wasn't true when the statement was made (Gordias iirc)

Looking again at the video linked in the OP, and re-reading the answer Yoshida gave:



The tone of it, at least to me, seems to aim more for a 'we don't want to force people to do damage as a healer if they're not comfortable', more aimed at the 'feel', and not so much about 'raid tuning'. When they say 'we do not want to make healer DPS mandatory', though, that part seems like it can be construed as referring to raid tuning, and if it is referring to the maths rather than the 'feeling', then they've missed the mark entirely for 6 years

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

The Healer dps issue seems to only be an issue for vets. Most players seem content with healers not having a lot of DPS things they have to juggle alongside healing and mechanics.

Besides, if they want that style then there's always Sage.

No reason to rock the boat just to appease some vets at the cost of the majority. Which we know that is the case considering that the easiest healers are the ones that are played the most.