Why are there no multi-hit skills on Sage?

[Renathras]

Multi-hit healing does already exist.



So it's not like they have to invent it specifically for SGE.

Wait, this is a thing? Is it different or...hm, I used it on a target dummy and only got two red numbers, and one was small so I figured the auto-attack for starting combat. Or is it SPECIFICALLY the Bloodbath effect? Hm...

I swear, this game's about as consistent as school cafeteria custard with some of the most simple things

I still don't understand why Passage of Arms, Sacred Soil, and Temperance all word their damage reduction differently:

PoA: "...in which party members will only suffer 85% of all damage inflicted."
Temp: ...reducing damage taken by self and all party members within a radius of 50 yalms by 10%."
Soil: "...only suffer 90% of all damage inflicted."

For the longest time, I thought this was relevant (like how Ability and Spell mean different things), but everyone I've ever asked, including the "experts" like Balance people, say it's the same effect. I thought maybe one goes before other damage calculations, or one is additive somehow vs multiplicative, or...something. But it seems not.
...probably.

Since I've never seen an official Dev answer, it's all based on guesswork, so there could be some difference, but if there is, no idea what it might be.

While I get the need for making kardia more interactive and want that, sch fairy aint even aint doing much more than spamming hots,...

As much as people say this, I don't know if it's the right way to look at it. I don't know the numbers but my Eos heals me for...I dunno, something like 5k (7k crits) while my Physic does around 13k non-crit. So it does around 40% of a basic Cure spell. Regen does like 7k per tick (but costs a GCD and, in theory, some MP, and doesn't adjust to heal different targets). I dunno, just seems...different to me.

Do you always have to reply to everything to defend your precious sch that is the least played healer even though its so called op of the 4 healers?

While I get your frustration, from all the numbers we have access to, AST is the least played healer, not SCH. And SCH is more played than SGE in the JP region, so the two are somewhat comparable from the available data.

I also think that their shield/pure healer split is silly, especially because SGE+SCH often works way better than pure+shield, and especially better than WHM+AST currently.

The biggest problem is that they make all the healers where they can solo heal (most) things, which means SCH and SGE have a lot of pure healing capability, even if it's sometimes wrapped in CDs or resource use. So this means you don't HAVE to bring an AST or WHM to any content, even high end content, as one of your healers. And mitigation is, all things being equal, always better than raw healing anyway since barriers and percent damage reductions effectively can "heal" people to greater than 100% HP. And encounters have a ton of mitigation checks these days, but no/few raw healing checks. In fact, I'm not sure of any in EW (maybe P3S, though I didn't play that fight, and it could be LB'd through as I understand it?). Everything that could be a healing check (like ZodEx's Styx) can be dealt with through mitigation/barriers as well. The only time this is relevant is stuff like the HP to 1 Dooms (and SCH and SGE together have enough healing to deal with those; sure a WHM can maybe solo them with Plenary Cure3 spam, but SCH and SGE can still deal with the problem without a WHM or AST in the party), and they've not used those lately anyway.

The final nail in the coffin? Neutral Sect and Collective Unconscious. These allow AST to shoe-horn in as a barrier healer for short periods of time anyway. This means that any division between "Pure Healers" and "Barrier Healers" is already broken, even if the above argument that SCH and SGE have sufficient raw healing and that mitigation and barriers are always better than raw healing anyway, WEREN'T true.

They'd either need to cut SCH and SGE's actual healing to 50% (or less) of what it is (or make it where they HAVE to use GCDs to do it and can't do all that with oGCDs), or they'd need to make non-mitigable healing checks. Outside of doing something like that, Pure is never needed, so the Pure/Barrier split just doesn't work. And then AST completely takes a sledgehammer to it from the other side anyway.

.

It was an experiment.

It utterly failed, between encounter design and Job design.

It needs to be reverted to something that encounters and Job design does work with, or one, the other, or both of encounters and Job designs has to be shifted (a lot) to make it work (as I say, SCH and SGE would need their actual healing output roughly halved before you "need" a WHM or AST, and that STILL may not be enough...) At which point it is reasonable to ask if the goal is worth it.

...granted, even at half healing, SCH and SGE could still solo-heal 4 mans and casual stuff fine, but it would need to be something that level of drastic to salvage the experiment.

[Aravell]

Wait, this is a thing? Is it different or...hm, I used it on a target dummy and only got two red numbers, and one was small so I figured the auto-attack for starting combat. Or is it SPECIFICALLY the Bloodbath effect? Hm...

It's on both, maybe your settings are different, but it's always been like this for me.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

It's on both, maybe your settings are different, but it's always been like this for me.

CMIIW, but I remember they have their own chances to crit/dh/cdh too. I.e. 1st hit may do normal dmg but 2nd and 3rd can crit separately.

[Aravell]

CMIIW, but I remember they have their own chances to crit/dh/cdh too. I.e. 1st hit may do normal dmg but 2nd and 3rd can crit separately.

Yes, each hit is calculated separately, that's why there's damage variance and why you can get only 1 or 2 hits that crit. I can't get a picture though, because it refuses to crit for me, so I gave up.

[AnotherPerson]

Yes, each hit is calculated separately, that's why there's damage variance and why you can get only 1 or 2 hits that crit. I can't get a picture though, because it refuses to crit for me, so I gave up.

Here you go.


Checked the battle log to make sure it wasn't a regular attack that does it. Here's 2 different instances where critical hit is involved on the Battle Log. The red and green arrows indicate the effects of the used skill. In this case, Dream within a dream attacks thrice and there's different critical hit variance for each attack. Bloodbath calculates based on damage and has a maximum scale based on enemy's HP. The first battle log screenshot was against a Lv 1 training dummy so bloodbath all stayed the same because it can't heal more than a certain amount of the enemy's HP. The second one was against a lv 50 training dummy. Kardia has its own healing potency so it doesn't have a finnicky scaling based on enemy's remaining HP and damage.
Img 1:


Img 2:

[Shurrikhan]

Here you go.

Nice. That quite thoroughly demonstrates all the technical aspects.

Broader question, though: Is it feel better/necessary for Kardia's interactions to exploit multi-hits specifically, or just that it should be able to exploit variances in its triggering GCDs?

I feel like literally doubling/tripling/quadrupling its value via multi-hits would mean, in accordant balance, that the single-hit version would hardly be noticeable, so I'm a little worried about attempting to give it such a range.

Simply having it scale with damage, though, would already fit its bigger GCD hits quite nicely, I would think.

...while TRUE, I've noticed that people will often carry a grudge against some people so hard they legitimately WON'T agree with them even if they're saying the same things. Sabezy just said she's "done with me" for agreeing with someone who literally said something I've said many times, and then stated her position, which is in agreement (on several of the major bullet points and to a degree overall) with my own position. Ty and I actually agreed on a number of things, but he would attack me for it or refuse to admit when we did. Some people here have outright accused me of being disingenuous when I agreed with them...on positions I'd already been on the record holding, even accusing me of trying to pull something by being too nice.

Which had very little to do with the position so much as that said poster was very, very obviously using a strawman (that the current discourse had supposed that any increased offensive agency on healers would necessarily be mere a 123 combo) just to smirch a far broader position (that the current Broil spam gameplay can be favorably replaced/augmented through additions to healers' downtime depth).

Sebazy, myself, and others gave the benefit of the doubt at first that he had simply seen the healer 123 combos idea elsewhere and assumed it was far more popular than it actually was and contextualized it for him, only to be repeatedly ignored in favor of a red herring and blatant misinformation. By the point of your agreeing with the poster, his behavior had clearly gone the way of trolling/purposefully derailing, and given the timing of your previous responses around his own, it probably seemed likely you were aware of that.

Sebazy herself had already concurred with that poster. The difference would be the when (before he purposely ignored all factual correction and repeatedly pretended that no one had already and again contested the idea) and why (providing context, rather than coming in after the fact to join the guy in beating down a strawman to celebrate a moment of "Eyy! We agree!").

I'm a bit shocked you of all people are saying that considering...

If I get time to read prior posts, I tend to cite those who beat to a given point that I felt needed to be made, regardless of who made it. That's almost as often yours as, say, Roe's, Ty's, or Aravell's.

Again, we've agreed on a lot of shit. We just approach certain things rather differently, wherein I like to find a means to make all parties happy first (by resolving unnecessary bottlenecks / removing unnecessary constraints) and compromise only if necessary, whereas it's felt like you tend to jump straight towards that compromise, trying to resolve who should get what portions of time on the 8-lane intersection while I'd have just installed a roundabout.

[Absurdity]

Broader question, though: Is it feel better/necessary for Kardia's interactions to exploit multi-hits specifically, or just that it should be able to exploit variances in its triggering GCDs?

I feel like literally doubling/tripling/quadrupling its value via multi-hits would mean, in accordant balance, that the single-hit version would hardly be noticeable, so I'm a little worried about attempting to give it such a range.

I would replace already existing Sage oGCDs with those multi-hit abilities, so the normal single-hit version would still be noticeable as your passive healing (like Eos) since all of your big Kardia heals are still restricted by cooldowns.

I think the plan isn't really to just staple high potency Kardia healing on top of the already strong oGCD heals that Sage has, but replace the fire and forget abilities with something that interacts with your core job mechanic.