People Enjoy hard Games

[Jojoya]

Does anyone know of someone who looked up a guide for Euphrosyne because they couldn’t figure it out themselves? Just wondering if someone legit couldn’t stop dying until they looked up a guide.

I for one don’t believe there is any and would be quite surprised. If anyone legit couldn’t beat it please come forward. I don’t mean this to look down on you, just legitimately curious if we actually haven’t hit rock bottom difficulty wise in alliance raids.

I also don’t mean you died. I mean you couldn’t stop dying because you could never comprehend what was going on in the raid until you looked up a guide.

The players who wait for guides are usually looking up the guides before they even queue.

If you've never talked to players who use guides for normal content, then you've never had a conversation about raid content with average players. I did that a lot in WoW even when I was getting server firsts on my main - I'd hop on my alts and fill spots in pugs because I could remember the help I got from alts belonging to some of the server's best when I was first starting in raiding. To be honest, I usually enjoyed raiding in those pugs more than I did in my main's guild. They were down to earth, just out to have some fun versus some of those in the guild who were all raid all the time and couldn't understand why anyone would be different. The game stops being a game when you treat it like a job.

So despite your barely concealed insult attempt, I'm not someone who relies on a guide. I still love doing content blind and figuring out mechanics even if I can't perform as well as I used to. You, too, will end up where I am some day. If you don't change your attitude, who's going to want to play with you when that happens?

[ZephyrMenodora]

The players who wait for guides are usually looking up the guides before they even queue.

If you've never talked to players who use guides for normal content, then you've never had a conversation about raid content with average players. I did that a lot in WoW even when I was getting server firsts on my main - I'd hop on my alts and fill spots in pugs because I could remember the help I got from alts belonging to some of the server's best when I was first starting in raiding. To be honest, I usually enjoyed raiding in those pugs more than I did in my main's guild. They were down to earth, just out to have some fun versus some of those in the guild who were all raid all the time and couldn't understand why anyone would be different. The game stops being a game when you treat it like a job.

So despite your barely concealed insult attempt, I'm not someone who relies on a guide. I still love doing content blind and figuring out mechanics even if I can't perform as well as I used to. You, too, will end up where I am some day. If you don't change your attitude, who's going to want to play with you when that happens?

I also wasn't sure how Ath's point was responsive to what you were saying.

I always review guides before doing content for the first time. ESPECIALLY if I'm running as one of the healers as I want to minimize the likelihood I'll be a burden early on for new content. IT has nothing to do with not being able to "stop dying until I looked up a guide." It's just being considerate to others' time when I'm new.

That said, I don't really care if others do things blind. Just as a healer particularly, when in a PUG you may not have DPS who can revive you, it's just a standard I have for myself and myself alone.

[Jojoya]

I also wasn't sure how Ath's point was responsive to what you were saying.

Ath wasn't trying to be responsive to what I was saying. They were looking for an opening to take a potshot at me since we've been on opposite sides of some of these conversations.

The ironic thing is that I am on their side to some degree. There is room for improvement in the game. It's desperately in need of midcore content (which I could still do if we had it). Criterion would have been perfect to fill that void and I'm confused why SE skipped the opportunity. It could also use some more Savage level content, which Criterion does fill except the rewards aren't what a large percentage of Savage raiders are going to be interested in acquiring.

But I don't want those things to come at the cost of average players losing access to content because someone decided to make everything harder. Fortunately, I don't feel it will come to that. I'm sure SE has managed to collect a lot of data about where players are hitting roadblocks in the MSQ and they'll keep that in mind when designing content included in the MSQ.

Unfortunately, that means people looking for MSQ content to get harder are probably going to be disappointed. While it's still not approaching the difficulty they can handle at their skill level, it has hit the skill cap for others.

People do want hard games, but only if they get properly rewarded for it.

The pre-allocated weekly timegate loot shtick isn't worth it for many people for dealing with static groups to complete raids.

So what do you think would be a proper reward? I've seen your complaints about time gates but not any suggestions about what to put in their place.

I also don't want any first-timers to feel like they have to look up these fights in advance because that's just perpetuates a culture more fixated on the destination than the journey, which may contribute to how we end up with more streamlined, unsurprising content over the years anyways.

I think being focused on the destination is more of a general society problem than a gaming specific problem. So much of the marketing that surrounds us daily is based around having the right things (the destination) rather than celebrating the effort someone put in to get those items (the journey).

[Ath192]

Ath wasn't trying to be responsive to what I was saying. They were looking for an opening to take a potshot at me since we've been on opposite sides of some of these conversations.

I wasn't taking a potshot at you. I was merely asking a question based on what you said wondering who actually looks up guides for normal content.

I would appreciate if you didn't twist my words into making all of this about yourself. It sounds like you developed main character syndrome and played the martyr when my response was a general question to the audience. Your post merely sparked a thought about who actually looks at guides for normal content in FFXIV because they feel it's necessary, it could have been anyone. However, due to the level of self-importance you adopt when people reply to you I will make a point to not quote you in the future until you actually start engaging on a general level instead of a personal one.

The answer on normal guides is not a lot of people.

I looked up FFXIV Euphrosyne guide on youtube, the top hit is a video by MTQ at 65K views, If I do the same thing for The Voidcast Dais EX, Hector's has over a quarter million views. Clearly if the majority of the playerbase is "Casual" if people actually looked up guides for normal content in XIV then the guide view count should be astronomically higher than the minority of the playerbase that does harder content.

Thats pretty telling on how easy the game is, while I believe normal content should be able to be cleared blind the fact is the game is so basic almost noone bothers to check anything regarding normal content because it is too uninteresting. The game should be striving to measure the preferred difficulty level of players and develop content based on the median outcome of those measurements. I feel like they are serving the lowest denominator of difficulty so that way they can just get everyone to hop in, but that actually makes the game boring for a significant portion of the playerbase and they end up leaving.


Also, if you look up FFXIV - Castrum Lacus Litore Raid Guide you will see it has 228K views, this is a bit better, and IMO, what raids should feel like in general in FFXIV. Clearly it was more interesting to run than Euphrosyne.

[Jojoya]

I wasn't taking a potshot at you. I was merely asking a question based on what you said wondering who actually looks up guides for normal content.

Strange. Let's look at your reply to me again.

Does anyone know of someone who looked up a guide for Euphrosyne because they couldn’t figure it out themselves? Just wondering if someone legit couldn’t stop dying until they looked up a guide.

I for one don’t believe there is any and would be quite surprised. If anyone legit couldn’t beat it please come forward. I don’t mean this to look down on you, just legitimately curious if we actually haven’t hit rock bottom difficulty wise in alliance raids.

I also don’t mean you died. I mean you couldn’t stop dying because you could never comprehend what was going on in the raid until you looked up a guide.

If you didn't mean me, why did you quote me and not the person you intended to reply to?

I'm not twisting your words. I'm taking them as they are written.

The answer on normal guides is not a lot of people.

I looked up FFXIV Euphrosyne guide on youtube, the top hit is a video by MTQ at 65K views, If I do the same thing for The Voidcast Dais EX, Hector's has over a quarter million views. Clearly if the majority of the playerbase is "Casual" if people actually looked up guides for normal content in XIV then the guide view count should be astronomically higher than the minority of the playerbase that does harder content.

One problem with going by views is that it's not going to tell you how many of those are repeat views.

I would definitely expect something like Hector's Voidcast guide to get multiple repeat views as groups are trying to figure out what to do.

An Alliance guide is less likely to get the repeat views (though I'm sure it still gets some).

I also didn't claim what percentage of players bothered to look at the guide. What I said was players who prefer to wait until guides are out wait until slightly slight in the week to do it and are then followed over the weekend by players who usually don't use the guides at all.

At least you established that yes, there are players who watch the guides even if you personally don't know any.

Players with skill will absolutely be able to clear Normal blind. That doesn't mean that all player can, or that there aren't others who still want that safety net of watching a guide first.

I'm also not certain that using view counts on CLL is the best way to determine how many players found it interesting. It may be that it was the Resistance story that players found interesting but CLL was a roadblock they didn't like but had to pass. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about it, only that using the view counts on guides is not a good way to determine it.

Literally add "has done x amounts of runs" participation award cosmetics and mounts for the current content. Tier it so that you get better rewards the longer you play. This way you don't need to timegate gear drops into a weekly lockout that pushes grinders away.

Effectively putting cosmetic progression behind only being able to complete the hardest mode with rng is not how you onboard grinders who want to take baby steps with learning the easier mode first. It just tells people they can kick dirt if they're not using 3rd party addons and in a premade clique and study youtube videos all day. Do note they could still have cosmetics locked behind the hardest mode, but it'd be in addition to, instead of, the participation awards (and optimally a recolor only, to avoid QQs while still being able to show prestige in game).

In other words, if you give mounts/cosmetic rewards specifically for participation, you won't need to worry about how much you need to sabotage loot to bait out participation anymore. Even Blizzard realized this with their Trading Post, albeit they just double dip rather than use trading post instead of.

It sounds like you just want a greater variety of rewards to earn as opposed to being genuinely opposed to timegating. Even your proposed rewards would run into a time gate of sorts by requiring time spent to complete the X number of rewards.

There's nothing that says the actual combat gear can't continue to be time gated while the cosmetics only need the participation requirements met.

Loot has always been the bait to get people into content. Players have been conditioned by marketing and social media to feel like they're owed something for their time instead of enjoying the content for its own sake. Look at Criterion - it's gotten a lot of praise as content. Then the same people turn around and say they won't do it unless they get better rewards from it. What's a developer to do when making good content alone still isn't enough to satisfy players?

As for Blizzard's Trading Post, I have bad news for you. It turns out it's been a microtransaction monetization scheme all along. As time passes, the costs of the rewards are increasing while the currency that can be earned through game play isn't. No player will ever be able to get all the rewards they might want without going heavy into the microtransactions.

[Ath192]

If you didn't mean me, why did you quote me and not the person you intended to reply to?

I'm not twisting your words. I'm taking them as they are written.

You are probably misunderstanding. I replied to your quote because its the one that gave me the question. So it was a reply to your post, however, asking a question to anyone in general. You took it as a personal insult, and told people I was taking digs at you.

If you look up the definition of you, you will see this, and understand I was asking the general public if they felt like normal content was difficult enough to warrant a guide. so the word "you" was used to refer to any person in general during that part of the post, not referring to you personally:




Here is my quote again, and by use of very obvious context clues, you can see I was referring to anyone, and not using "you" to refer to "Jojoya" only.

If anyone legit couldn’t beat it please come forward. I don’t mean this to look down on you, just legitimately curious if we actually haven’t hit rock bottom difficulty wise in alliance raids.

[SquishyPlushie]

It sounds like you just want a greater variety of rewards to earn as opposed to being genuinely opposed to timegating. Even your proposed rewards would run into a time gate of sorts by requiring time spent to complete the X number of rewards.

There's nothing that says the actual combat gear can't continue to be time gated while the cosmetics only need the participation requirements met.

Loot has always been the bait to get people into content. Players have been conditioned by marketing and social media to feel like they're owed something for their time instead of enjoying the content for its own sake. Look at Criterion - it's gotten a lot of praise as content. Then the same people turn around and say they won't do it unless they get better rewards from it. What's a developer to do when making good content alone still isn't enough to satisfy players?

As for Blizzard's Trading Post, I have bad news for you. It turns out it's been a microtransaction monetization scheme all along. As time passes, the costs of the rewards are increasing while the currency that can be earned through game play isn't. No player will ever be able to get all the rewards they might want without going heavy into the microtransactions.

Timegate caps 100% steer me off whatever it's being applied to. Once I run into a timegate cap or weekly I stop playing the game mode entirely, they give me the I'm being trolled feeling. Timegate killed WoW for me and it's killed caring about lvl 90 raiding in FF14. Please do not conflate timegate loot caps and throttles with additional reward disbursement for engagement.

... I want positive reinforcement that's conducive to progressing content put in. Making loot uncapped, albeit low drop rate instead, and adding recolors of cosmetics/mounts for participation thresholds itself would be a start.

As for the rewards for participation aspect, SE does do this, but they limit it primarily behind Tomestone Events... So they know it works but won't do it normally outside of targeted dates...

[Jojoya]

You are probably misunderstanding. I replied to your quote because its the one that gave me the question. So it was a reply to your post, however, asking a question to anyone in general. You took it as a personal insult, and told people I was taking digs at you.

If you look up the definition of you, you will see this, and understand I was asking the general public if they felt like normal content was difficult enough to warrant a guide. so the word "you" was used to refer to any person in general during that part of the post, not referring to you personally:




Here is my quote again, and by use of very obvious context clues, you can see I was referring to anyone, and not using "you" to refer to "Jojoya" only.

I understand now that it was not intended as a dig at me. My apologies.

I would say that it's better to avoid using the generic "you" when another person is being quoted for clarity's sake. It's a bad habit I had for a while and trained myself not to use it because even if I did my best to make my intent clear, I know there would be some that would misinterpret it. Saying "if a player" instead of "if you" removes any possible confusion.

Making loot uncapped, albeit low drop rate instead, and adding recolors of cosmetics/mounts for participation thresholds itself would be a start.

Low drop ends up penalizing the player that can only play a couple of hours a week. You're effectively trying to add a new time gating system but with rules that favor your specific playstyle instead of being fair to all paying customers.

MMORPGs have moved away from the low drop rate systems to the weekly time gated systems to be fair. They've added in additional optional rewards for those who like the low drop rate grinds to keep them engaged with content longer.

The tomestone events are limited because SE knows that the majority of players can't keep doing those hard grinds indefinitely.

If you need that steady reinforcement to remain interested in playing, then ARPGs are a much better way to go.

[Toutatis]

I would definitely expect something like Hector's Voidcast guide to get multiple repeat views as groups are trying to figure out what to do.

Also let’s add that PF often refers to Hector’s strats. Personally I only look at his guides because of that. I always go blind first as it’s much more interesting.

[TaleraRistain]

I looked up FFXIV Euphrosyne guide on youtube, the top hit is a video by MTQ at 65K views, If I do the same thing for The Voidcast Dais EX, Hector's has over a quarter million views. Clearly if the majority of the playerbase is "Casual" if people actually looked up guides for normal content in XIV then the guide view count should be astronomically higher than the minority of the playerbase that does harder content.

I feel like this comparison is a little flawed because it's not factoring in repeat views. Someone might look up the Euphrosyne guide to get a general idea of mechanics but there's a lot of leeway. So that person can watch and find out "Okay watch this area for this attack" and not need to go back again.

Contrast that with the EX guide where I know I found myself going back on a regular basis as I got certain prog points down to make sure I knew where to go or orient myself for the next arc of mechanics. There's not nearly as much leeway, especially given the body checks in that fight where people must be exactly where they're supposed to be at certain points or the party will wipe.

Youtube does put a limit on repeat views in 24 hours but they can still multiply the numbers and make the comparison not as reliable.