For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Renathras]

None among "healers should play differently from each other", "healers should play differently from other roles", or "healers should have distinct identities", etc. are unique to your "model".

The only ultimate difference is that one model restricts what each job is allowed, in order to guide it towards a specific camp, while the other simply says "Whatever seems to especially fit the job and build out its core mechanics/theme, go for it... and then tweak and polish thereafter for deeper and/or broader appeal to the playerbase as is possible, be that via a bit more contrast here, a bit more highlighting of unique aspects there, etc., etc."

No.

That's not the way ANY of this works. This is why we can't have productive discussions.

Full stop no. My argument has always been all healers.

Full stop no.

2) Your argument is to say, for the 25% that want more complexity/depth in dps and healing, they get all four healer Jobs, and let's say screw the other 75% and leave just ZERO healers for them when that wasn't what anyone wanted in the first place.

Your solution is unacceptable.

EDIT:

Your model is not an improvement. Its gatekeeping. IN the traditional sense. You're literally gatekeeping all four healer's designs to suck, and you're gatekeeping healers who enjoy current healing. You are literally telling them "great, you can play MSQ and you aren't allowed to do anything else because we want the jobs to be convoluted and clunky and DPS because we like DPSing better. You want to play a healer, go play another GAME because no healer Job in FFXIV will be allowed to be fun." You just don't want to admit it or just can't see it that way.

Pick whichever is more accurate.

(Btw, this isn't me trying to be snarky. This is me showing you what you sound like.)

.

As always, my solution accommodates the most people. Your idea of "fun" isn't. Your idea of "better" isn't. YOU are literally writing off 75% of the community (by your example numbers) and telling them to screw off and go play another GAME while my idea means that both they and you can play this one. That makes your model worse in every way.

Why does White Mage having ‘similar design philosophy to what it has now’ mean ‘it cannot get any new dps or non-healing abilities ever?’
Based on current design for both encounters and healers I’d estimate White Mage would be more likely to receive new damage abilities if they wanted to ‘keep it mostly the same’. Whether they’re interesting or not is a different matter, but still. I’d assume Renathas isn’t literally saying White Mage should not get any new abilities whatsoever, cuz that would just be weird come expansion time lol

Correct. Upgrades, new effects added to abilities, etc, would all still exist.

I'm with you on the 4-Healer Model.

Some nuance can exist within the Jobs - as it already does. I think this is the major sticking point. I recognize the Jobs already have complexity/depth while others reject the notion outright and hyperbolize that Healers are 1 button Jobs that don't do anything else.

I also agree with you that the concepts of easy and hard are subjective. I've long found GNB easier to play than old PLD, DRK, or WAR, though I'm not sure why.

Because Renathras doesn't get your bolded point.

False.

I get it, you don't.

Maybe you should stop telling people what people who aren't you are thinking?

He keeps thinking that we want complexity without accessibility and that we want to gatekeep players when in reality, no.

Some of the people on your side have literally said before that people should not be able to play as they do currently and clear Savages OR even Extremes. Yes, that is gatekeeping. The idea of it being accessible "in MSQ 4 mans" is not actual accessibility.

The crux of his argument is that [U]healers want more than the crappy loop SE has given

...do you GENUINELY not realize that some people find Healers enjoyable to play right now? That "crappy loop" is your SUBJECTIVE take and not one universally shared?

...but he'll sacrifice any one given the oppertunity.

NO!

GOOD GOD this is what's frustrating.

I'm not "sacrificing" one. I'm SACRIFICING THREE. I'm SAVING one from you! What you want is the sacrifice. What you want is the suck. What you want is the crappy loop. What YOU want is the shit gameplay that I'd hate to be subjected to. I'm not "sacrificing" one healer to save three. I'm SACRIFICING three TO SAVE ONE. And YOU get all three. AND THAT'S NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU.

Its admirable when you really stop to think about it,

At least you get this right...

...but he's not going about it the wrong way, and he's still failing to offer a good reason as to why WHM or any healer for that matter should stay as it is when as you've said and I'VE said in the past they aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm going to ignore "failing to offer a good reason" as I've done so dozens of times, you just don't want to accept it. Moving on from THAT to mutually exclusive:

The problem is, it is.

Unless the complex and simple forms HAVE THE SAME OUTPUT, it's mutually exclusive because there will be some content that the latter cannot clear otherwise. Therein lies the problem. That's why one should be spared being turned into a shitty worse DPS and allowed to remain NOT shitty like healers today are NOT shitty and are fun and enjoyable to play. And there's no way you guys would accept the same output. You think "more work should be more rewarding", and the "reward" isn't "more fun" it's "greater output in either damage, healing, utility or some combination". That's not equal, and thus is mutually exclusive. And, if someone points this out, they get accused of being lazy or "wanting a pink parse" - because we all know belittling and insulting people is the highest form or civilized discussion and disproves the opponent's position, right? Oh, wait, no it's not...

Hell, you've seen MY WHM and SGE proposals, have you not?

In both cases I made the DPS rotation more engaging, and I did it without even adding another DPS button (or button at all) for WHM, and actually DECREASING the total number of abilities on SCH!

WHM: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-Mage-eddition
Note that this would be a more complex DPS rotation but doesn't add a single new spell to the roster to do so.

SCH: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-Proposal-SCH
This idea actually adds a lot of complexity, but pays for it by simplifying and merging abilities, reducing clunk, and streamlining systems to make it not punishing at the same time.