People Enjoy hard Games

[VelKallor]

If you think I am forum banned, you are very mistaken ;

So where is she? Whats with this alt, hm?

You’ll find people who want complexity will praise accessibility options as long as they don’t reduce inherent complexity (such as very easy mode) but people who don’t like complexity will fight tooth and nail to get it completely removed from the game (such as I can’t clear this duty on normal, instead of clearing it on very easy I’ll demand it be nerfed)

I have no issue with complexity, but as I have said before ( to date no one has had the integrity to ACCURATELY quote me ), I have said that story content ie MSQ should never be a brick wall. There is a huge gap between savage raids and the normal instances for MSQ progression.

One is not the other.

eureka and Bozja can’t continue because they force me to actually play the game

Again, as has been said by me, it may be the fact that those zones were NEVER PLANNED FOR ENDWALKER owing to metrics, design issues, timeframes or other reasons, as you are aware expacs are planned years ahead. At the last fanfest there were comments made about a new type of content akin to Bozja that may be on the table. I suggest you wait.

As has ALSO been noted by others besides one of the major issues with these zones are the fact they are DEAD content once their use by date has passed. a few PF groups may not be enough to justify the cost and time for these zones to be designed and implemented..or it may simply be the case they simply gave it a miss this time.

We dont know why.

It’s just a never ending sequence of content being cut and watered down because excessively pro casual people would rather content be deleted than just admit that it may be too hard or not the type of content for them

No one has asked for anything to be deleted, ever, and I defy you to show me one time where it was.

[Supersnow845]

Since when did my comment ever imply I was referring to you directly

[SophiaDL]

So where is she? Whats with this alt, hm?



I have no issue with complexity, but as I have said before ( to date no one has had the integrity to ACCURATELY quote me ), I have said that story content ie MSQ should never be a brick wall. There is a huge gap between savage raids and the normal instances for MSQ progression.

One is not the other.



Again, as has been said by me, it may be the fact that those zones were NEVER PLANNED FOR ENDWALKER owing to metrics, design issues, timeframes or other reasons, as you are aware expacs are planned years ahead. At the last fanfest there were comments made about a new type of content akin to Bozja that may be on the table. I suggest you wait.

As has ALSO been noted by others besides one of the major issues with these zones are the fact they are DEAD content once their use by date has passed. a few PF groups may not be enough to justify the cost and time for these zones to be designed and implemented..or it may simply be the case they simply gave it a miss this time.

We dont know why.



No one has asked for anything to be deleted, ever, and I defy you to show me one time where it was.

as I mentioned above, you can look at Koros, his medals are gone because he's banned, everyone in this forum will tell you that, when you get banned all the medals are gone ; ) You can be stubborn as much as you want, that doesnt make you right, not only that, but I dont owe you an explanation of why I am not posting on my main right now, I'm not sure who you think you are

Since when did my comment ever imply I was referring to you directly

Just Vel being Vel, dont mind them too much

[Aravell]

You’ll find people who want complexity will praise accessibility options as long as they don’t reduce inherent complexity (such as very easy mode) but people who don’t like complexity will fight tooth and nail to get it completely removed from the game (such as I can’t clear this duty on normal, instead of clearing it on very easy I’ll demand it be nerfed)

And it affects every facet of the game, jobs can’t be easy with added complexity people need to be able to pink parse with their brains turned off, eureka and Bozja can’t continue because they force me to actually play the game

It’s just a never ending sequence of content being cut and watered down because excessively pro casual people would rather content be deleted than just admit that it may be too hard or not the type of content for them

I just wanted to point out the trend so people who oppose optional complexity or optional grinds yet support optional easy modes can stop for a moment and look at themselves and realise that they're showing hypocrisy. Either they're ok with options for both sides or they're not ok with any options at all (easy or hard), picking one to support while opposing the other side just makes a person a hypocrite.

[Supersnow845]

I just wanted to point out the trend so people who oppose optional complexity or optional grinds yet support optional easy modes can stop for a moment and look at themselves and realise that they're showing hypocrisy. Either they're ok with options for both sides or they're not ok with any options at all (easy or hard), picking one to support while opposing the other side just makes a person a hypocrite.

As egal so aptly put it you’d have a harder time teaching pigs to fly than making people admit hypocrisy when it comes to opposing optional difficulty while supporting optional accessibility

I do appreciate your effort though

[dspguy]

I agree with the subject title of the thread. But the reality is that keeping a large portion of content casual brings in the money.

[WeebPolice]

I agree with the subject title of the thread. But the reality is that keeping a large portion of content casual brings in the money.

You're not wrong. Profits above all else for a company like Square Enix.

[PercibelTheren]

You're not wrong. Profits above all else for a company like Square Enix.

Casual players carry every game. Sorry, but hardcore players are just an extremely loud minority. If you make a game hostile to casual players, it dies because its population falls off a cliff. It's always been like that. Just look at all the "hardcore full loot PvP" games everyone claims to love. None of them have been successful.

[Limecat]

I don't mind it at all in single player games, they're ultimately a one and done. Something online and generating a forever-long series of tasks though? Nah, I'll pass, I'm not here to work. If I'm going to do something that's truly difficult, it needs to be guaranteed I'm getting all the associated rewards in one clear so I can scratch it off the list and never do it again, or it's really really not worth my time and aggravation. Maybe SE is being clever with that though, since technically they're front-loading 3-4 years of content for people like me ahead of time. That's about how long it takes for us to outgear old EX and savages to the point doing them can become comfy/fun PF time.

[Renathras]

..............

You dont listen, you dont read. We're done.

You're not at all wrong. You've just made the cardinal mistake of challenging the local bullies on how easy the game is. They don't like being challenged, so they tend to gang up, belittle, name call, and so on anyone that challenges that.

Watch the replies to me after this to get an idea. But at this point, I don't mind, and I also don't mind absorbing some blows so someone else isn't being dogpiled by a bunch of serial bullies.

.

Personally, I really enjoyed that solo instance because it did a great job of "show through gameplay" how powerful the WoL is compared to a "normal" person. My bigger issue was more the healing. Health kits are uncommon and you really need one after every (or at best every other) fight. There's no other place in the game you need that, since there's no other place in the game, even in-combat, where healing is that reduced. The closest I can think of is if someone is soloing PotD and got the debuff from the Mimics AND THEN a floor where auto-regen was disabled and they aren't on a healer Job.

So add no auto-healing on top of a timer that pushes you to advance even though you can't without dying, and it makes sense to me that some would find it very difficult. They should honestly have enabled the difficulty at the start of the mission (not after dying) and the very easy version should have auto-healilng enabled and no timer.

And I say this as a person that really liked it as executed and cleared it on the first try. I also play Kingdom Hearts on Expert whenever I start a new game, even when playing one for the first time. So I can handle that, but not everyone can, and I think the game recognizes that across most of it, so doing so here as well would be wise.

EDIT:

If you cant do a simple solo duty, then perhaps its better you dont get to end game yeah, looks like you're just preparing yourself for a very bad time if you plan on doing any sort of end game content and already cant handle a solo duty.

This is just a sick take.

You people always say "low skill floor, we don't want to exclude people from the game, casuals have the MSQ" and so on, yet here we're literally talking about the MSQ and your counter is "maybe you don't deserve to get through it". What a piece of work.

I didn't realize you were Stormpeaks, but that makes perfect sense. And all 5 people that liked your post should be ashamed of themselves.

And for Midcore players, there is..... ehmm... huuhh... outdated Bozja and Eureka. Oh, and the Deep Dungeons, which are pretty much carbon copies of each other. Not Good, eh?

This I agree with. The game has a shortage of midcore content (as a midcore player, I've noticed it pretty severely in EW).

In the past, Extremes were midcore, but they've shifted those into being closer to Savage over time. Old Extremes, one person failing a mechanic meant they died, but the party could go on. This was the distinction vs Savage, where any player failing punished the entire party. But with more and more stuff like Limit Cuts and the like, they've made it to where Extremes function far closer to the first boss or two of the Savage tiers in terms of difficulty.

But while doing this, they've made 24 mans easier, so from midcore-lite down to casual level, and removed (for EW, anyway, maybe back with DT) Exploration Zone content that was good for the midcore. At the same time, despite hardcore players endlessly complaining about everything being for casuals, they keep adding more hardcore stuff like new Ultimates and Criterion (which hardcore players complain about not rewarding them enough). Even Eureka Orthos, the new Deep Dungeon, long content for midcores, has been bumped to where the later bosses are closer in difficulty to Savage fights, especially at the top floor.

It's the midcore actually losing out.

Extremes need to be bumped back down in difficulty, or they need to reintroduce (Hard) as that new difficulty between normal and Extreme level content, and they absolutely need a new Exploration Zone in DawnTrail.

But when people ask for optional complexity to their jobs, or when people ask for optional grinds to do, suddenly people are fighting tooth and nail against those options. Why is that? Are options good or bad to have?

Because it's not optional.

As you can see from this discussion.

Stormpeak/Sophia wants people to have to quit the game mid-MSQ and be unable to finish even the MSQ story.

And most people wanting complexity to their jobs don't want it to be "optional", they want it to be required for clearing content above the MSQ level, which is only optional if we stretch the word to its limits. Indeed, when people propose adding that complexity but having a negligible DPS difference so that it IS optional, the people wanting the "optional" complexity insist that not be allowed. Meaning it's not "optional" at all. If you were really just asking for something optional (e.g. SCH to have 4 DoTs but optimal use of them produced the same DPS that current Boilspam does - making it truly optional), people wouldn't mind. It's when you ask for a change and then want to preclude the existing status quo from being able to clear content, often by saying "Well, if you don't want to grow, you shouldn't be clearing it"; which makes it not "optional" anymore.

And pretty much no one is "fighting tooth and nail" against optional grinds. The majority opinion here - including of people that oppose higher Job complexity/difficulty - is for new grinds/Exploration Zones/etc. I mean, you have it out with me all the time on this stuff, but you know I'm one of the biggest proponents here for a new Exploration Zone and my most often critique of this game other than the 2 min meta is EW not having one.

You’ll find people who want complexity will praise accessibility options as long as they don’t reduce inherent complexity...

...AND as long as playing the Job at the accessible limit puts it back in performance and likely makes it unable to clear end-game content above the MSQ level. Maybe you shouldn't leave that little part out, since that's the entire crux of the disagreement?

but people who don’t like complexity will fight tooth and nail to get it completely removed from the game (such as I can’t clear this duty on normal, instead of clearing it on very easy I’ll demand it be nerfed)

What?

This is pretty much ALWAYS false. Take me for an example. You know my "4 Healers Model" so I won't rehash it here, but even under that paradigm, it REQUIRES making three of the Healer Jobs more complex, and one of them VERY more complex. And in the case of the one Job unchanged, it's just AS complex as things are now. How is that "removing complexity from the game"?

And, again, I'm one of the biggest proponents here for Eureka/Bozja/Exploration Zone content.

I get there are other people you may be talking about, but I'm in this camp you decry, and what you just said is a total lie when it comes to my own position.

I just wanted to point out the trend so people who oppose optional complexity or optional grinds yet support optional easy modes can stop for a moment and look at themselves and realise that they're showing hypocrisy. Either they're ok with options for both sides or they're not ok with any options at all (easy or hard), picking one to support while opposing the other side just makes a person a hypocrite.

Again, what you propose is generally not "optional" in most senses of the word other than "You don't have to clear content". Imagine the reverse - your caricature of what people you're opposing want - where no content even ALLOWS complexity, and the only way to clear it is to play with simplicity. "But you have Ultimates"

Casual players carry every game. Sorry, but hardcore players are just an extremely loud minority. If you make a game hostile to casual players, it dies because its population falls off a cliff. It's always been like that. Just look at all the "hardcore full loot PvP" games everyone claims to love. None of them have been successful.

The greatest single example of this was the total implosion of Wildstar.

I agree... everyone ignores the word " Optional "...

The problem is, it's generally NOT optional in most proposals, it's mandatory.

Again, this is literally the crux of the entire disagreement. Getting this wrong means an impossibility to come to a solution since you fundamentally don't understand what the disagreement is even about.