People Enjoy hard Games

[VelKallor]

an hour for a solo duty

..............

so as to allow focus on the GAME ELEMENTS and not the timer.

You dont listen, you dont read. We're done.

[Renathras]

..............

You dont listen, you dont read. We're done.

You're not at all wrong. You've just made the cardinal mistake of challenging the local bullies on how easy the game is. They don't like being challenged, so they tend to gang up, belittle, name call, and so on anyone that challenges that.

Watch the replies to me after this to get an idea. But at this point, I don't mind, and I also don't mind absorbing some blows so someone else isn't being dogpiled by a bunch of serial bullies.

.

Personally, I really enjoyed that solo instance because it did a great job of "show through gameplay" how powerful the WoL is compared to a "normal" person. My bigger issue was more the healing. Health kits are uncommon and you really need one after every (or at best every other) fight. There's no other place in the game you need that, since there's no other place in the game, even in-combat, where healing is that reduced. The closest I can think of is if someone is soloing PotD and got the debuff from the Mimics AND THEN a floor where auto-regen was disabled and they aren't on a healer Job.

So add no auto-healing on top of a timer that pushes you to advance even though you can't without dying, and it makes sense to me that some would find it very difficult. They should honestly have enabled the difficulty at the start of the mission (not after dying) and the very easy version should have auto-healilng enabled and no timer.

And I say this as a person that really liked it as executed and cleared it on the first try. I also play Kingdom Hearts on Expert whenever I start a new game, even when playing one for the first time. So I can handle that, but not everyone can, and I think the game recognizes that across most of it, so doing so here as well would be wise.

EDIT:

If you cant do a simple solo duty, then perhaps its better you dont get to end game yeah, looks like you're just preparing yourself for a very bad time if you plan on doing any sort of end game content and already cant handle a solo duty.

This is just a sick take.

You people always say "low skill floor, we don't want to exclude people from the game, casuals have the MSQ" and so on, yet here we're literally talking about the MSQ and your counter is "maybe you don't deserve to get through it". What a piece of work.

I didn't realize you were Stormpeaks, but that makes perfect sense. And all 5 people that liked your post should be ashamed of themselves.

And for Midcore players, there is..... ehmm... huuhh... outdated Bozja and Eureka. Oh, and the Deep Dungeons, which are pretty much carbon copies of each other. Not Good, eh?

This I agree with. The game has a shortage of midcore content (as a midcore player, I've noticed it pretty severely in EW).

In the past, Extremes were midcore, but they've shifted those into being closer to Savage over time. Old Extremes, one person failing a mechanic meant they died, but the party could go on. This was the distinction vs Savage, where any player failing punished the entire party. But with more and more stuff like Limit Cuts and the like, they've made it to where Extremes function far closer to the first boss or two of the Savage tiers in terms of difficulty.

But while doing this, they've made 24 mans easier, so from midcore-lite down to casual level, and removed (for EW, anyway, maybe back with DT) Exploration Zone content that was good for the midcore. At the same time, despite hardcore players endlessly complaining about everything being for casuals, they keep adding more hardcore stuff like new Ultimates and Criterion (which hardcore players complain about not rewarding them enough). Even Eureka Orthos, the new Deep Dungeon, long content for midcores, has been bumped to where the later bosses are closer in difficulty to Savage fights, especially at the top floor.

It's the midcore actually losing out.

Extremes need to be bumped back down in difficulty, or they need to reintroduce (Hard) as that new difficulty between normal and Extreme level content, and they absolutely need a new Exploration Zone in DawnTrail.

But when people ask for optional complexity to their jobs, or when people ask for optional grinds to do, suddenly people are fighting tooth and nail against those options. Why is that? Are options good or bad to have?

Because it's not optional.

As you can see from this discussion.

Stormpeak/Sophia wants people to have to quit the game mid-MSQ and be unable to finish even the MSQ story.

And most people wanting complexity to their jobs don't want it to be "optional", they want it to be required for clearing content above the MSQ level, which is only optional if we stretch the word to its limits. Indeed, when people propose adding that complexity but having a negligible DPS difference so that it IS optional, the people wanting the "optional" complexity insist that not be allowed. Meaning it's not "optional" at all. If you were really just asking for something optional (e.g. SCH to have 4 DoTs but optimal use of them produced the same DPS that current Boilspam does - making it truly optional), people wouldn't mind. It's when you ask for a change and then want to preclude the existing status quo from being able to clear content, often by saying "Well, if you don't want to grow, you shouldn't be clearing it"; which makes it not "optional" anymore.

And pretty much no one is "fighting tooth and nail" against optional grinds. The majority opinion here - including of people that oppose higher Job complexity/difficulty - is for new grinds/Exploration Zones/etc. I mean, you have it out with me all the time on this stuff, but you know I'm one of the biggest proponents here for a new Exploration Zone and my most often critique of this game other than the 2 min meta is EW not having one.

You’ll find people who want complexity will praise accessibility options as long as they don’t reduce inherent complexity...

...AND as long as playing the Job at the accessible limit puts it back in performance and likely makes it unable to clear end-game content above the MSQ level. Maybe you shouldn't leave that little part out, since that's the entire crux of the disagreement?

but people who don’t like complexity will fight tooth and nail to get it completely removed from the game (such as I can’t clear this duty on normal, instead of clearing it on very easy I’ll demand it be nerfed)

What?

This is pretty much ALWAYS false. Take me for an example. You know my "4 Healers Model" so I won't rehash it here, but even under that paradigm, it REQUIRES making three of the Healer Jobs more complex, and one of them VERY more complex. And in the case of the one Job unchanged, it's just AS complex as things are now. How is that "removing complexity from the game"?

And, again, I'm one of the biggest proponents here for Eureka/Bozja/Exploration Zone content.

I get there are other people you may be talking about, but I'm in this camp you decry, and what you just said is a total lie when it comes to my own position.

I just wanted to point out the trend so people who oppose optional complexity or optional grinds yet support optional easy modes can stop for a moment and look at themselves and realise that they're showing hypocrisy. Either they're ok with options for both sides or they're not ok with any options at all (easy or hard), picking one to support while opposing the other side just makes a person a hypocrite.

Again, what you propose is generally not "optional" in most senses of the word other than "You don't have to clear content". Imagine the reverse - your caricature of what people you're opposing want - where no content even ALLOWS complexity, and the only way to clear it is to play with simplicity. "But you have Ultimates"

Casual players carry every game. Sorry, but hardcore players are just an extremely loud minority. If you make a game hostile to casual players, it dies because its population falls off a cliff. It's always been like that. Just look at all the "hardcore full loot PvP" games everyone claims to love. None of them have been successful.

The greatest single example of this was the total implosion of Wildstar.

I agree... everyone ignores the word " Optional "...

The problem is, it's generally NOT optional in most proposals, it's mandatory.

Again, this is literally the crux of the entire disagreement. Getting this wrong means an impossibility to come to a solution since you fundamentally don't understand what the disagreement is even about.

[Aravell]

And most people wanting complexity to their jobs don't want it to be "optional", they want it to be required for clearing content above the MSQ level, which is only optional if we stretch the word to its limits. Indeed, when people propose adding that complexity but having a negligible DPS difference so that it IS optional, the people wanting the "optional" complexity insist that not be allowed. Meaning it's not "optional" at all. If you were really just asking for something optional (e.g. SCH to have 4 DoTs but optimal use of them produced the same DPS that current Boilspam does - making it truly optional), people wouldn't mind. It's when you ask for a change and then want to preclude the existing status quo from being able to clear content, often by saying "Well, if you don't want to grow, you shouldn't be clearing it"; which makes it not "optional" anymore.

You haven't yet explained how any additional optional complexity to jobs would somehow cause people who can already clear non-MSQ content right now to suddenly become unable to. Did you know that extremes can be cleared by healers who do no damage? Did you know that savage can be cleared by healers who do half their potential damage output?

Even in the extremely unlikely scenario of optional complexity reducing the output of the current playstyle to half of what it is now, people would still comfortably clear every piece of content except ultimates. I'm not sure where the gatekeeping is.

[Shurrikhan]

The problem is, it's generally NOT optional in most proposals, it's mandatory.

Again, this is literally the crux of the entire disagreement. Getting this wrong means an impossibility to come to a solution since you fundamentally don't understand what the disagreement is even about.

<< "Right now we have mechanics 1-8 in our kits and barely even need to passably do 1-3 (or, roughly half the kit overall) to do clear virtually all content, since the fundamentals are worth so much more than each little element of difficulty added thereafter and all content is really quite lenient right now. However, even when using that entire kit, the gameplay still feels kinda... shallow/barebone, so I'd love to have a few more mechanics to work with. It's fine if content continues only to require as much as it does now, even after those additions. We can just raise the output ceilings that little bit, without nerfing what exists now."

>> "You would FORCE that additional complexity on everyone?!?!"

???

Someone disagreeing with you about what is optional is not a failure to understand that disagreement.

Just as players are not forced to go BLM right now, nor forced to optimize any job, neither would they be forced to make use of additional skill ceiling. None of that is mandatory.

Most of the existing kits are already far from mandatory in their usage, or you wouldn't so often see them go barely to not at all used in clears. A single death will frequently make a larger difference to one's "performance" than up to a third of one's buttons, and crit/dhit luck will often make a bigger difference than hyperoptimizations.

[Aravell]

Most of the existing kits are already far from mandatory in their usage, or you wouldn't so often see them go barely to not at all used in clears. A single death will frequently make a larger difference to one's "performance" than up to a third of one's buttons, and crit/dhit luck will often make a bigger difference than hyperoptimizations.

I went and looked into it a bit, I found that if a SCH doesn't put up Biolysis even once in P9S, the damage loss can be almost entirely covered by a NIN direct critting a single Hyosho Ranryu.

[Supersnow845]

I went and looked into it a bit, I found that if a SCH doesn't put up Biolysis even once in P9S, the damage loss can be almost entirely covered by a NIN direct critting a single Hyosho Ranryu.

Healers have 2 damage buttons and one can be invalidated by a single DPS critting a single time in the burst window (if hyosho Ranryu crit does it at least enkindle will also do it)

Absolutely A++++ design

[Iscah]

[B]Just as players not forced to go BLM right now, nor forced to optimize any job, neither would they be forced to make use of additional skill ceiling. None of that is mandatory.

Most of the existing kits are already far from mandatory in their usage, or you wouldn't so often see them go barely to not at all used in clears. A single death will frequently make a larger difference to one's "performance" than up to a third of one's buttons, and crit/dhit luck will often make a bigger difference than hyperoptimizations.

Healers have 2 damage buttons and one can be invalidated by a single DPS critting a single time in the burst window (if hyosho Ranryu crit does it at least enkindle will also do it)

Absolutely A++++ design

These factors seem to work against each other.

On the one hand you have people saying "they could design classes so you can do a lot more damage if you put in the effort".

And then on the other hand, you have people pointing out (with what reads as resentment) that someone can do enough damage to cover up another party member's weakness.

Which is wanted? Gameplay where it's okay for only some party members to have optimised their skills, or where everyone is pulling equal weight?

And why is it a problem that a DPS does more damage than a healer? The game isn't a contest of who does more damage individually, but how much you do together as a team.

Am I missing something?

[Rolder50]

These factors seem to work against each other.

On the one hand you have people saying "they could design classes so you can do a lot more damage if you put in the effort".

And then on the other hand, you have people pointing out (with what reads as resentment) that someone can do enough damage to cover up another party member's weakness.

Which is wanted? Gameplay where it's okay for only some party members to have optimised their skills, or where everyone is pulling equal weight?

And why is it a problem that a DPS does more damage than a healer? The game isn't a contest of who does more damage individually, but how much you do together as a team.

Am I missing something?

Pretty sure that the point is: Healers spend 90% of their actions DPSing. Those DPS actions largely come down to two buttons. But the healer DPSing is so unimportant that they can be covered by a DPS getting lucky. So, what is the point of playing a healer if there is almost nothing to heal and your DPS doesn't matter?

Generally people fall into three camps in this issue:
1) They are fine with the status quo.
2) They want more DPS actions / more contribution to DPS. If you are going to spend the majority of your time doing dps anyway, might as well make it fun.
3) They want there to be more to heal in encounters. So you spend less time doing damage and more time healing / being a support / etc.

[Supersnow845]

These factors seem to work against each other.

On the one hand you have people saying "they could design classes so you can do a lot more damage if you put in the effort".

And then on the other hand, you have people pointing out (with what reads as resentment) that someone can do enough damage to cover up another party member's weakness.

Which is wanted? Gameplay where it's okay for only some party members to have optimised their skills, or where everyone is pulling equal weight?

And why is it a problem that a DPS does more damage than a healer? The game isn't a contest of who does more damage individually, but how much you do together as a team.

Am I missing something?

You should be able to optimise to do more damage if you understand your class. A (clunky) example of this sort of optimisation is AST, if you never draw a card in the entire fight you are likely only losing about 15% of your total damage, MNK and BLM’s lines are also examples of this sort of optimisation (though again there isn’t remotely enough of it)

Crit variance is not a form of optimisation and nor should it be big enough to invalidate that level of damage variance of another class (even a healer), remember this is savage on this point if your skill floor is 80% of your skill ceiling in this theoretical design then you should be doing 95% to clear savage, not relying on crit variance of another class

My personal resentment of that fact is also coloured by how boring healer damage in general is, I have 2 damage buttons and one is completely invalidated by the damage done by one burst window crit of one DPS job, just kinda makes your contribution feel worthless