Healer Suggestions Megathread

[Katish]

I'm going to get heat for this...
but with the cast times as they are (i.e almost instantaneous), do the healers need to be casters anymore (or are justifiable as casters)? Food for thought. lel
Guess this could be said to SMN and RDM as well, but that's what homogenizing does...lel.

Warrant, that I would rather them differentiate all the healers to be different (that would never happen), i.e one healer having long cast times, one being instant, one being relative, one being buff related.

Imagine if you had to GCD draw as AST but doing so would prock other abilities...would be entirely different class and mindset. xD

[Renathras]

A Verstone/Verfire Ready proc isn't consumed by the Verstone/Verfire spell being interrupted,

I didn't say that it did? I said no Job has a combo system where parts of the combo (things that proc a further step in a chain) have cast times which can be interrupted if the player has to move, is knocked back, etc. I didn't say anything about procs being consumed due to interruption...
(You know how I mention from time to time some of your disagreements with me are based on things I never said? This would be an example of such a thing.)

As to combos being broken - this seems to be something that varies wildly by Job. On GNB, the AOE combo and single target combo will break each other, but Gnashing Fang's combo breaks neither, but is broken by both. On PLD, the 1-2-3 isn't broken by either using Holy Spirit or Atonement (or Clemency), but on RDM, the 1-2-3 is broken by literally any GCD action they execute that isn't the next step of the combo. There seems to be no actual rhyme or reason, much less a uniform standard, to it all.

The only Spells used in combo actions are Instant casts. So the fantasy of a 1-2-3 with each spell having a cast time/different cast time is unlikely. For example, if they gave SGE a 1-2-3, it would work like MCH's 1-2-3 does, like as not.

"(there already are spell combos if counting instant casts)" - I specifically mentioned this: SMN's 1-2 Ifrit charge combo are classified as Spells but they are instant casts.

They could add them, that's true, but it's unlikely they will for that reason. The reason Casters never had them is because their spells having cast times was considered the complexity of the rotation vs non-Casters actions all being instant but needing to have a positional and/or order to them.

[ForsakenRoe]

I didn't say that it did? I said no Job has a combo system where parts of the combo (things that proc a further step in a chain) have cast times which can be interrupted if the player has to move, is knocked back, etc. I didn't say anything about procs being consumed due to interruption...

Yes, but if you go back in time a bit, there was one example of this being the case: HW MCH. And to make it function correctly, rather than have it as an actual combo, it functioned more like what we know now as 'Clean Shot Ready'. Getting to the 2 or 3 in the combo removed the cast time, yes, but the first step always had the cast time before chaining into the second, unless you used Rapid Fire. Still, point stands, a cast time action that functioned as part of a 1-2-3 combo

Though, the overall issue of 'losing your 1-2-3, cast times or not, due to interrupting casts, moving mid cast, etc' is moot, because if you were to miss, for example, the combo step you're on does not advance, nor is it lost, you just have to try that step again until you land a hit. I would imagine that a 123 that had cast times would be the same, it only advances you to the next step if you successfully 'trigger the effect of the move', which means interruption via movement, missing because blinded, all of that, would all be non-factors.

But again I default to 'why have 1-2-3 combos, cast times or no, when we could have the much more dynamic 'X ready' procs and SonicBreak style seperate-CD-GCDs, which IMO fit much more cleanly with the overall design of the healer role, being as it's meant to be the 'quick, react to this guy standing in the fire' role. Yes, the 1-2-3 won't get interrupted by you casting Solace, sure, but I'd argue the 'feel' of using 12/15/21/30 whatever staggered timer CDs, and filling with Glare etc, just 'feels' more right. Because you'd be able to make decisions with that kind of design, that you can't with a 1-2-3.

Take an example fight. At some point in the next 6 GCDs, Jimmy Samurai is going to get hit for a lot of damage because you can see he's playing greedy and does not seem too aware of the 'tell' of the boss unless it's a giant orange AOE. Let's say it's the trampling wildlife in Lapis first boss. With a design that has, eg, a 12s DOT and a 15s GCD, you have to decide: If Jimmy takes a hit when it's time to refresh the DOT, do you delay the heal or the DOT refresh? Same with the 15s GCD, which gets delayed? Does this lose you a use over the fight? If you choose to delay the DOT refresh, does this mean that both the DOT and the GCD are now 'ready' on the same GCD, and now you have to choose which to prioritize? And then, if it turns out the GCD that is 'removed' because you had to substitute it with a Solace is a filler Glare, yippee, nothing is misaligned, everything continues as normal.

Contrast that with a 1-2-3. You're planning to go 1-2-3-1-2-3 for your 6 GCDs. At any point where Jimmy gets trampled by the wildlife, you can simply throw a Solace in, such as 1-2-3-1-Solace-2-3. There's no additional thinking required, you just continue on after pressing the heal, as if nothing happened. And as such, it's hard to see how 1-2-3 equates to much more than just 1-1-1 again, without additional things like SAM's Sen or NIN/WAR's upkeep buffs. But those are presumably too complicated for healers to worry about. If they had existed in the ARR-SB times, they'd have been removed in SHB with the reasoning of 'we had data showing that many healer players struggled to keep the buff active, while also managing their healing output, so we have removed the buff upkeep and made the effect permanent, so healers can focus on their healing output more'

IDK I just feel like there's a lot more that can be done, in all design directions with 'X Ready' compared to the rigidity of 1-2-3s, bearing in mind that this is the healer role we're on about. Like, let's say you want to add a new action that is a hybrid of healing and damage. Let's say, a SGE action that does damage, and also applies one layer of Haima to the Kardia target. With 1-2-3 as the 'solution' opted for, you're stuck: it's part of the 1-2-3 (probably as the 3), and you have little to no decision making over it's timing. It's effect is just 'there', as is the case with Brutal Shell's shield on GNB. But, if it were on a 'Melainachole Ready' (example name) proc, there's more options. Perhaps the proc can stack multiple times, so you can 'save' uses for that multihit TB in... well, P9S, P10S, P11S, P12Sp2 all have one. Alternatively, if it's not a 'proc' but a standalone CD like Phlegma, Krasis, Pneuma, Toxicon (god forbid), maybe there's a way to get additional uses, that a 1-2-3 can't do (except spellspeed melds lmao). Toxicon gets more uses because of shield breaking giving Adderstings. The damage lost/regained ratio leaves something to be desired, but the underlying design is interesting. You could, then, have something like this:

Melainachole: 1.5s cast, 45s charge time, 2 charges
Do damage to enemies in a cone in front of you with a potency of <Dosis potency> to the primary target, and 50% less to all secondary targets
Additional Effect: Applies a barrier with a potency of 100 to Kardion target. Multiple uses of this skill will apply additional stacking barrier layers.
Additional Effect: When damage is dealt via Dosis or Dyskrasia, the recharge time of Melainachole is reduced by 1s.
This action does not share a recast with any other actions.

edit: this is 100% unrelated to previous stuff, but I just had an idea: What if, instead of actions who's CDs replenish over time, we had a new kind of action, where you had only X amount of 'use' for the fight, and after that it's gone, such that you want to ration it out? As an example, Flamethrower for MCH. What if it were reworked to be much stronger such that you'd want to use it in single target, but you only have 30s of fuel, across the whole duration of the encounter? You'd want to put the channel times in points of the fight where you know you can stand still for a bit

Alternatively, cooldowns with 'charges' like we have now, gapclosers, Gauss Round, etc. But, you have, say, 5 charges of an action across the fight, and it does not recharge naturally. But, you CAN earn additional charges by using another part of your kit. As a quick and dirty example, imagine a Chemist class, where you have your basic crap, Cure/Medica analogues, and that's your fallback for when things are stressful. Your OGCD suite will be what you'd want to rely on, as is the case for every healer (bar one notable exception) in this game, but it's made from several of these non-recharging actions, so for example, 2 stacks of Indom-copy, 3 of Lustrate-copy, 1 of '1200p total regen', and to replenish them, you have to 'mix' a new charge as part of your job's mechanics. Rather than being gated by simple CD timers, you're instead gated by how fast you can perform the mixing. EG, if there's 3 filler GCDs of equal potency, correlating to a red/green/blue chemical, and you have to use a certain combo to mix a new charge of one of the OGCDs, you could fast-track certain skills to come back sooner. If you know there's a lot of AOE healing needed coming up, you can purposely use only the combo that mixes into an Indom-bomb, and replenish that sooner, and then mix up the other combos later

[Shurrikhan]

I didn't say that it did?

To say that no job could ever have casted combos because they are "subject to interruption" would require that the ability to make sequentially unlocked actions can currently be wasted by interruption.

They cannot and never have. The end.

[Calysto]

something something spaghetti code : can't use if/else statement to check if a proc/combo is active...

[Connor]

I mean, I don’t believe 1-2-3 healer combos are going to solve anything, but at the same time isn’t the ‘interruptible mid-combo from moving’ aspect fairly easy to fix?

PvP already has Bards using abilities that have cast times but also allow (restricted) movement. So they could just have the 2-3 part of healer combos also utilise ‘cast times but with limited movement’ so resolve that issue. That said, having one of the healers utilise the whole ‘cast but limited movement’ type spells as a way to differentiate themselves from other healers. Not as like a main feature though lol, it’s not that interesting

Though again, I don’t think 1-2-3 combos are going to make healers any better than they are now. I mean, surely healers should offer a unique playstyle, not one that’s ‘as much like a standard dps as possible’? I also don’t agree with concepts like ‘make WHM like BLM’, or ‘make Scholar like pre-Endwalker Summoner’. Surely WHM and SCH should be it’s own unique thing, and if someone wants to play like a Black Mage…they should play a Black Mage? I’d say the same for Summoner, but that’s literally not possible anymore lol, and that’s a whole other issue really

[AnotherPerson]

All healers need is just some useful and unique healing tools that actually matter in encounter design while reducing healing oGCDs to actually put emphasis on not ignoring our healing GCDs, replaced with skills that actually can make a difference to unique mechanics. As it is, healing GCDs are rarely/less likely used and basically take up hotbar space in favor for oGCD usage when oGCD usage could be handled to not just take away healing GCD uses.

Ex: Applying a targeted party member a tethered totem that takes damage in place of it. With both a HP bar and a body-count, it can work in both body-count checks and work for lowering damage on a tank/DPS when targeted. Multi-purpose versatility.
Ex: Allowing healers to apply float to remove lava damage / fall damage / poison in encounters and designing boss fights with interesting environmental zones that could apply constant DoT debuff.
Ex: Allowing for an expanded DPS toolkit for solo play now that they rely on GCD heal more, making every hotbar button just as impactful in the grander scheme of things.

Melainachole: 1.5s cast, 45s charge time, 2 charges
Do damage to enemies in a cone in front of you with a potency of <Dosis potency> to the primary target, and 50% less to all secondary targets
Additional Effect: Applies a barrier with a potency of 100 to Kardion target. Multiple uses of this skill will apply additional stacking barrier layers.
Additional Effect: When damage is dealt via Dosis or Dyskrasia, the recharge time of Melainachole is reduced by 1s.
This action does not share a recast with any other actions.

Stop settling for DPS neutral skills. They're literally and functionally worthless. Skill's damage potency should always be worth more than your main functioning skill <Dosis>. The gain from applying a barrier should be enough of an opportunity cost to offset using that skill in early. Otherwise, it just means the healing effectiveness of the skill wasn't big enough that people wouldn't be using it other than for DPS. That just implies the skill is fundamentally worthless as a DPS action and it's just all fluff to hide the fact that it's another way to package an oGCD tool.

[Shurrikhan]

Stop settling for DPS neutral skills. They're literally and functionally worthless. Skill's damage potency should always be worth more than your main functioning skill <Dosis>. The gain from applying a barrier should be enough of an opportunity cost to offset using that skill in early. Otherwise, it just means the healing effectiveness of the skill wasn't big enough that people wouldn't be using it other than for DPS. That just implies the skill is fundamentally worthless as a DPS action and it's just all fluff to hide the fact that it's another way to package an oGCD tool.

Is this, too, just advocating for more opportunity for GCD healing for the sake of healing (which in turn requires more damage intake)? Else, it seems like you're following a different understanding of "damage-neutral" than its typically used here and on Reddit.

:: To be clear, if it takes 2 GCDs to prep and use a Toxicon, then for it to be damage-neutral without raid buffs, its potency must be twice the damage of the filler attack (because it's 2 GCDs, and the filler attack is the opportunity that was lost to use it). A "damage-neutral" Toxicon, given a 330-potency Dosis III, would already be 660 potency, not 330, as far as the term is used here.

Sorry, the idea that we shouldn't "settle" for damage-neutrality makes it sound like you want more in terms of damage, so I'm just a bit confused.

All healers need is just some useful and unique healing tools that actually matter in encounter design while reducing healing oGCDs to actually put emphasis on not ignoring our healing GCDs, replaced with skills that actually can make a difference to unique mechanics. As it is, healing GCDs are rarely/less likely used and basically take up hotbar space in favor for oGCD usage when oGCD usage could be handled to not just take away healing GCD uses.

Ex: Applying a targeted party member a tethered totem that takes damage in place of it. With both a HP bar and a body-count, it can work in both body-count checks and work for lowering damage on a tank/DPS when targeted. Multi-purpose versatility.
Ex: Allowing healers to apply float to remove lava damage / fall damage / poison in encounters and designing boss fights with interesting environmental zones that could apply constant DoT debuff.
Ex: Allowing for an expanded DPS toolkit for solo play now that they rely on GCD heal more, making every hotbar button just as impactful in the grander scheme of things.

This would be neat.

I feel like you wouldn't need to devote discrete buttons to them, though / could hit multiple objectives with the same action. For instance, you could turn what was formerly Aero III into something that can target enemies and allies alike, splitting DoT AND Sprint+Float duration among enemies and allies respectively. Something like that totem could likewise ALSO be a damage-capable CD that allows you to single-target attacks or heals into it before raid-buffs / add spawns or raid damage in order to burst it for AoE damage or healing. And with that, your healing skills are still worth pressing / fun to press even when less healing is required. (Though, yes, I feel that Healers' relative healing requirements should be increased regardless.)

[Renathras]

To say that no job could ever have casted combos because they are "subject to interruption" would require that the ability to make sequentially unlocked actions can currently be wasted by interruption.

They cannot and never have. The end.

What?

I know you're desperate to show me up every chance you get...but this ain't it, Shurrikhan.

I didn't say interruption CONSUMED VERSTONE/FIRE READY. You pulled that claim completely out of your bum and are trying to avoid admitting it. And people say I won't admit mistakes... And that's not a subjective/opinion difference. You outright said I said something that I didn't say.

.

Anyway, I didn't say it CAN'T be done. I said there's no current example in the game of it.

And no, that statement wasn't an implied "it can't happen", either. It's more me pointing out the direction the Devs have seemed to want to go with rotations and combos, and that they haven't seemed interested in having cast time versions. Further, Roe added another wrinkle...

...

...in that this once existed but was removed. Meaning it's even more unlikely we'll get it.

Though this is kind of funny. When I first started dabbling with MCH was in SB, I think. I don't think the abilities had cast times then. Maybe when I VERY first started, but I remember them changing...Gauss Barrel, was it? I think it HAD been a toggle (that put a visual on the end of your gun's barrel) that did something (something to do with heat or maybe that was the Wonderer's Minuet that gave its abilities cast times to increase their damage?), but I think they changed it away from that. I don't remember much of MCH from back then because I only messed around with it up to level 45 or so. ShB was when I went back to level it, I think. Though I still remember the Reload and Quick Reload animations (I think they gave you magic bullets that would guarantee your skill would proc the next higher level one? Though I don't remember if they had cast times then...)

Anyway, does seem to agree with the idea it's unlikely that's a direction the Devs want to go.

[Shurrikhan]

What?

I didn't say interruption CONSUMED VERSTONE/FIRE READY.

Nor did I say you did. You summarized the (non)issue as such:

I feel like, in general, 1-2-3 doesn't work with cast times. Note that no Job that exists with a 1-2-3 does so with the buttons having cast times and being subject to interruption.

Except, there is nothing inherent to their being casts nor to casted combos being only as subject to interruption as any other combo (only by using a combo-breaking ability, with cast-interruption having zero effect on one's ability to re-attempt the combo step) that would make it so "1-2-3 doesn't work with cast times". We know this because of prior examples of casted unlocked actions, of which Verstone/Verfire procs not being consumed upon starting/attempting the cast is just one.

My apologies if I read that as a useful claim (these factors are WHY we don't have 1-2-3s with cast times) instead of your simply stating the obvious (that we don't have them at the moment). Admittedly, I suppose I should have known better.

Gauss Barrel [in Stormblood]

Was a toggle that activated the Heat Gauge mechanic and granted % bonus damage. It was automatically removed at the end of Overheat and would have to be re-applied.

edit: this is 100% unrelated to previous stuff, but I just had an idea: What if, instead of actions who's CDs replenish over time, we had a new kind of action, where you had only X amount of 'use' for the fight, and after that it's gone, such that you want to ration it out? As an example, Flamethrower for MCH. What if it were reworked to be much stronger such that you'd want to use it in single target, but you only have 30s of fuel, across the whole duration of the encounter? You'd want to put the channel times in points of the fight where you know you can stand still for a bit.

If significant, it would overpower the job in short encounters and underpower it in long encounters. I doubt the decision-making, moreover, would really be any more than for any other multi-charge CD whose use you'd want to optimize either through deliberate preparatory actions or getting the most value out of it as possible over its duration.