The Healer DPS Problem, The Toxicity it incites

[Amnmaat]

Tanks being made squishy also resulted in a massive drop off in the number of people willing to play them. Every role should be fun, yeah? Well, being a tank that isn't remotely capable of self-sustaining isn't fun for a lot of people. It would behoove them to look for solutions that don't involve nerfing tanks, like maybe starting with an increase to outgoing group/raid-wide damage so that everyone requires more healing to stay alive.

I like Guild Wars 2's solution; enemies and bosses in that game target whoever it wants, while the "tank" specs can still keep the boss focused on them, but not indefinitely. Also, in GW2 tanks are not these sponges which the boss can't break through.

GW2 handles it how square enix tried to handle it at start of Stormblood; make the tanks squishy. Tanks laugh at damage in most situations. Tank busters? More like tank tickle. Until we're willing to bring tanks down from being sponges and create a better mechanical dynamic with them they will all be boring 123 to fell cleave clones. The fact that all tanks have to do in xiv is press 1 button to shield themselves is laughable. Say what you want about Dark knight and Blackest night, but that's how tanking in xiv should work, outside of tank mechanics like Blackest night tanks should be squishy. Outside of Bloodwhetting War should be taking a pummeling, make those damn healers heal, protect, and take care of them outside of it.

[Absimiliard]

ay what you want about Dark knight and Blackest night, but that's how tanking in xiv should work, outside of tank mechanics like Blackest night tanks should be squishy. Outside of Bloodwhetting War should be taking a pummeling, make those damn healers heal, protect, and take care of them outside of it.

I.... what? Bro, tanks that don't use their cooldowns right get absolutely stomped into the ground already. Besides that, being squishy as a tank is decidedly unfun. Why do you think their numbers dropped off after their survivability took that huge hit? Targeting tanks with nerfs is not the way to make the game engaging for healers. There are plenty of other options available that won't result in another tank shortage.

[IDontPetLalas]

I.... what? Bro, tanks that don't use their cooldowns right get absolutely stomped into the ground already. Besides that, being squishy as a tank is decidedly unfun. Why do you think their numbers dropped off after their survivability took that huge hit? Targeting tanks with nerfs is not the way to make the game engaging for healers. There are plenty of other options available that won't result in another tank shortage.

I would like you to consider the flip side of the coin - lying dead on the ground while your party continues the without you, the healer because you died to a mechanic, but they don't really need you. Or forms a party but asks you to join as a DPS because a 'healer will only slow this down" and you have to agree that they're right- but really - you would prefer to heal and DPS- NOT have the tank do it for you.

Now, you may say that I'm exaggerating, perhaps so. However I would say that the game has way overcompensated for the 'squishy tank" issue. The time is over due to look at the other options that allow all roles to have an engaging experience, and part of that for me means that each role will have to rely to some degree (depending on difficulty perhaps) on the other roles in group content. No one role should carry, no one role should be excluded from content design.

[ASkellington]

I would like you to consider the flip side of the coin - lying dead on the ground while your party continues the without you, the healer because you died to a mechanic, but they don't really need you. Or forms a party but asks you to join as a DPS because a 'healer will only slow this down" and you have to agree that they're right- but really - you would prefer to heal and DPS- NOT have the tank do it for you.

Now, you may say that I'm exaggerating, perhaps so. However I would say that the game has way overcompensated for the 'squishy tank" issue. The time is over due to look at the other options that allow all roles to have an engaging experience, and part of that for me means that each role will have to rely to some degree (depending on difficulty perhaps) on the other roles in group content. No one role should carry, no one role should be excluded from content design.

Its not an exaggeration when you can 100% complete any EW boss fight without a healer.

WAR can 100% do it 0 problems.
Pretty sure PLD can.
I KNOW GNB can cause I've done it, and I've even done it on Shb bosses.
DRK is the only iffy one and even then I think they could do it.

Tanks should have decent survivability, yes. They shouldn't straight up invalidate a role with it.

[Absimiliard]

I would like you to consider the flip side of the coin - lying dead on the ground while your party continues the without you, the healer because you died to a mechanic, but they don't really need you. Or forms a party but asks you to join as a DPS because a 'healer will only slow this down" and you have to agree that they're right- but really - you would prefer to heal and DPS- NOT have the tank do it for you.

Now, you may say that I'm exaggerating, perhaps so. However I would say that the game has way overcompensated for the 'squishy tank" issue. The time is over due to look at the other options that allow all roles to have an engaging experience, and part of that for me means that each role will have to rely to some degree (depending on difficulty perhaps) on the other roles in group content. No one role should carry, no one role should be excluded from content design.

Easy solution:
Leave tank personal sustain alone, decrease their group healing and mitigation
Add cleaves and really nasty unavoidable AoE damage to more enemies
Add reasonable but tight enrage timers to bosses

There. Now the tank can't sustain the entire party, everybody is screwed if the DPS are bad, healers are forced to heal, and nobody gets screwed out of their enjoyment of their job.

The above aside, I invite you to consider the following:
Most non-extreme/savage content is in fact doable without tanks. Just need to make sure one of the healers is a shield-healer so the tankbusters don't erase the DPS.

[Absurdity]

The above aside, I invite you to consider the following:
Most non-extreme/savage content is in fact doable without tanks. Just need to make sure one of the healers is a shield-healer so the tankbusters don't erase the DPS.

Even if it did, you have two more of them. So you can just scrape the dead DPS off the floor and continue. Sure it's going to take forever but with no enrage timer to worry about that doesn't matter.

[Absimiliard]

Even if it did, you have two more of them. So you can just scrape the dead DPS off the floor and continue. Sure it's going to take forever but with no enrage timer to worry about that doesn't matter.

Which is a good reason to start putting in enrage timers again. The only complication there is how it would impact people who want to go back and do the old content solo after it's no longer relevant. They'd have to make the epic echo or whatever it's called a lot stronger to compensate, although I suppose it's not a problem they'd need to worry about until Dawntrail was over and done with anyway.

[ASkellington]

Easy solution:
Leave tank personal sustain alone, decrease their group healing and mitigation
Add cleaves and really nasty unavoidable AoE damage to more enemies
Add reasonable but tight enrage timers to bosses

There. Now the tank can't sustain the entire party, everybody is screwed if the DPS are bad, healers are forced to heal, and nobody gets screwed out of their enjoyment of their job.

WAR's personal sustain is still needing a nerf. They straight up invalidate a healer in dungeons, and frankly I don't care if their sustain is fine in raids. Their raid sustain isn't the issue. Their dungeon one is.

GNB I'll also say is an issue. I can STILL solo a boss with 2 charges of aurora and HoC. PLD at least has the drawback of needing to use MP and DRK... DRK actually could use a bit more but its... fine. RN.

WAR's sustain needs more of a draw back than "every 40s" recast and I could argue the same with GNB. Probably make it so that HoC doesn't auto heal you if you're below half... cause yeah I have done that. It should require damage being dealt to do it.

[Absimiliard]

WAR's personal sustain is still needing a nerf. They straight up invalidate a healer in dungeons, and frankly I don't care if their sustain is fine in raids. Their raid sustain isn't the issue. Their dungeon one is.

GNB I'll also say is an issue. I can STILL solo a boss with 2 charges of aurora and HoC. PLD at least has the drawback of needing to use MP and DRK... DRK actually could use a bit more but its... fine. RN.

WAR's sustain needs more of a draw back than "every 40s" recast and I could argue the same with GNB. Probably make it so that HoC doesn't auto heal you if you're below half... cause yeah I have done that. It should require damage being dealt to do it.

Tanks being able to solo inconsequential bosses is a thing in most MMOs, y'know. It's completely normal. It also goes completely out the window if, as I mentioned in my prior post, enrage timers become a thing again.

Healers need something to do besides hit their one DPS button. That much, I agree with. What they're healing doesn't have to be the tank, however. There are plenty of other people in a group the game could start directing more damage to. Heck, that's another thing common across most MMOs now. Tanks in general just tend to not need as much healing attention as the healers/DPS outside of tankbusters and specific, and it should stay that way.

[IDontPetLalas]

Tanks being able to solo inconsequential bosses is a thing in most MMOs, y'know. It's completely normal. It also goes completely out the window if, as I mentioned in my prior post, enrage timers become a thing again.

Healers need something to do besides hit their one DPS button. That much, I agree with. What they're healing doesn't have to be the tank, however. There are plenty of other people in a group the game could start directing more damage to. Heck, that's another thing common across most MMOs now. Tanks in general just tend to not need as much healing attention as the healers/DPS outside of tankbusters and specific, and it should stay that way.

If we we limiting this discussion to tanks soloing ARR bosses, most people would likely agree that those bosses are "inconsequential" however when we're talking about endgame dungeons? No- I would disagree. Your statement regarding how this is common across 'most MMOs" is rather surprising as well- which ones are you thinking of, as this definitely isn't common to the ones I've played in the past.

So there are a number of options , I can understand why you would prefer one over the other. Fundamentally however there should be some recognition that each role relies on each other and that one of the options on the table could increase healing requirements on tanks outside of TBs. Or it could be damage/debuffs to the party members, a little creativity from SE would be welcome (time for a new Doom maybe)