G-give it Back T---T; !!

[Reimmi]

Sigh... noone ever said Kaiten was difficult to press let alone manage any ressources for.

What is being repeatedly said is that Kaiten was essentially a button you press before Iaijutsu 100% of times and never press it on any other GCD 100% of times since at that point Shinten (and previously Seigan) had more ppg (potency per gaugecost).

Yes Shinten spam is boring, yes losing Seigan is a tragedy and I also can understand the satisfaction of the twirling animation and the idea of boosting/changing your next attack. But with Kaiten there was no alternative usecase, you always used it before Iaijutsu and never used it anywhere else in realistic scenarios. Shinten and Seigan you could at least shift where in your timeline you used them as long as you didn't overcap Kenki or went too low on burst window.

If Kaiten was transforming how Iaijutsus or skills in general behaved, THAT would be cool, that is what the PvP version does and what I'd enjoy having on Samurai. But the old version just is a "Shinten you press before Iaijutsus, everytime without question" so I understand why people don't care and don't want it back when there are others that do want it back.

The skill cap was lowered by removing it, it literally made kenki management matter, cause if you over used your filler spender you wouldnt be able to use it.
Just because it was always used doesn't mean it was a bad thing, aetherflow is always used before energy drain, should we remove that?
Life surge is always used before a big hit for dragoon, same thing.

I dont think comparing to pvp is a good idea either because if we go to 4 buttons in our rotation in pve i'm quitting instantly lmao, that works in pvp cause encounters are short, but the game would be so god damn boring with that few buttons

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

The skill cap was lowered by removing it, it literally made kenki management matter, cause if you over used your filler spender you wouldnt be able to use it.
Just because it was always used doesn't mean it was a bad thing, aetherflow is always used before energy drain, should we remove that?
Life surge is always used before a big hit for dragoon, same thing.

I dont think comparing to pvp is a good idea either because if we go to 4 buttons in our rotation in pve i'm quitting instantly lmao, that works in pvp cause encounters are short, but the game would be so god damn boring with that few buttons

Yes the skillcap was lowered and I lament it. As someone who plays Dark Knight I find pooling a ressource for a task rather than overspending a good mechanic so I totally agree with you on it. But what I don't agree on is how you conflate other examples with Kaiten.

- Aetherflow is a ressource generator, not a skill transformator. The closest equivalent to that would be Ikishoten -> Ogi Namikiri combo + Shintens. Furthermore, the ressources get to be spent on either energy drain or (depending on what the fight needs) a variety of support utility like Sacred Soil.

- Life Surge is cooldown based, not ressource based. You use plenty of Heaven's Thrusts without Life Surge, you did not use a single Iaijutsu without Kaiten. Before it gets dropped - the same applies to Machinist Reassemble on Drill / Air Anchor / Chainsaw.

I understand your initial fear for anything related PvP, but you are missing the point why I'm bringing it up.

I specifically am only referrring to the Kaiten effect (that is currently on their dash) transforming your single target combo into AOE variants with different effects based on the combo step and nothing else about PvP so if you could stop kneejerk reacting just because I said "PvP" that'd be great. It doesn't have to be a CC, extra damage and a lifesteal but it could be other effects that aren't "press X before every Y everytime without question".

I miss pooling ressources for other skills other than Shinten. I and various others don't miss singular-purpose-only Kaiten. I am not sure how much clearer we can make it.

[CelestiCer]

I always saw kaiten itself AS the alternative use case for Kenki, which now really has no other use case. - Also bros come on with the "why not ask for something better?" Stuff. This is Square Enix. They don't give take something away and give back "something better." They take something away and best case scenario give it back in a mangled form.

This! Square does indeed not remove skills and then give them back in a more complex/changed manner for increase depth. Some seem to have missed the memo on how every expansion left most Jobs hollowed out, Samurai with 7 simplifications... getting Kaiten back would be a miracle and it's not un-reasonable request as it existed. Very easy to get back.

I disagree with Reinhardt's notion of Kaiten having to be more " multipurpose " since they argued that already at the DPS subsection. Clearly as Non-Samurai player as well, so excuse me if I sense bad faith... It existing prevented Shinten spam gameplay so Functionally, Aesthetically and Thematically to build up to big hits was already multipurpose. Yet... why is Kaiten put under scrutiny to be something completely different when brought back as an overused argument? Like how has that worked out for Dark Arts, Aero III and so many other skills where it not only should come back but also alter how your entire skill-kit works? ( what in the... )

" That Honda Civic you took?... I want it back... and have it be able to transform from a Car? into a boat Plane? with build-in probably not so functioning jacuzzi when changed into a Trike, Get on it!! " <- like what?

Asking Square/Dev's and Co something back how it worked? Is more realistic as they proven to have done that before. After SMN rework? Seeing something new and unproven be implemented from what they have removed? You can tell I'm not very optimistic... vs asking something back I know exactly of what I should get back. Not everything has to be multi-purpose, a spoon/fork/knife work perfectly fine as they is... Not everything has to be a battery powered pocket knife with build in " spork "

[Zairava]

what in the...[/B] )

Dark Arts modifying abilities to give them another effect and/or making them stronger was literally how Dark Arts worked.

[AnotherPerson]

This! Square does indeed not remove skills and then give them back in a more complex/changed manner for increase depth. Some seem to have missed the memo on how every expansion left most Jobs hollowed out, Samurai with 7 simplifications... getting Kaiten back would be a miracle and it's not un-reasonable request as it existed. Very easy to get back.

It's reasonable to request it, and very reasonable to justify it, but it's unreasonable to think it's very easy to get back based on their history of changes. Just look at healer simplification over the years with DPS and tanks complaining healers don't heal enough even though healer actually do heal, to the point tanks/dps got even more self-sustain/party-sustain that can invalidate healers and healers hasn't gotten anything back in the DPS/support side in response to even lowered healing requirements. Perfectly unreasonable to think it's very easy to get back no matter how simple the request is. The whole reason why it got removed is because crit variance was too big on Samurai, even though they don't say it is (hence the huge rebalance on DPS towards all of Samurai's skills). If it's balanced but functional at the cost of "fun", then they won't change it because lackluster gameplay is subjective, even if the previous majority of players who main that role did enjoy that aspect that was removed. The job gameplay has to be completely broken for them to change anything (see: SCH actually cannot function without Energy Drain in ShB launch or it runs out of MP back then so it was given back) or the entire playerbase has to agree with it (and I mean near 0 dissenting voices and trolls).

[Zairava]

It's reasonable to request it, and very reasonable to justify it, but it's unreasonable to think it's very easy to get back based on their history of changes. Just look at healer simplification over the years with DPS and tanks complaining healers don't heal enough even though healer actually do heal, to the point tanks/dps got even more self-sustain/party-sustain that can invalidate healers and healers hasn't gotten anything back in the DPS/support side in response to even lowered healing requirements. Perfectly unreasonable to think it's very easy to get back no matter how simple the request is. The whole reason why it got removed is because crit variance was too big on Samurai, even though they don't say it is (hence the huge rebalance on DPS towards all of Samurai's skills). If it's balanced but functional at the cost of "fun", then they won't change it because lackluster gameplay is subjective, even if the previous majority of players who main that role did enjoy that aspect that was removed. The job gameplay has to be completely broken for them to change anything (see: SCH actually cannot function without Energy Drain in ShB launch or it runs out of MP back then so it was given back) or the entire playerbase has to agree with it (and I mean near 0 dissenting voices and trolls).

Agree with everything except with what I bolded. Even that reason doesn't hold water. If they wanted to reduce it in this fashion, they literally could have done it by making Kaiten give Iaijutsu guaranteed crits along with the potency changes.

[Shurrikhan]

The whole reason why [Kaiten] got removed is because crit variance was too big on Samurai, even though they don't say it is (hence the huge rebalance on DPS towards all of Samurai's skills).

Removing Kaiten, in itself, had absolutely no effect on crit variance.

If I have a skill that increases another skill's damage by 50% (Kaiten), it is no more subject to crit variance than if that original skill just dealt 50% more damage in itself (no Kaiten) and the of the kit is tuned around the reduced opportunity cost in Kenki.

Moreover, Kaiten itself could have just instead guaranteed the critical hit, for --shocked Pikachu face-- roughly the same damage bonus.

If crit variance were the reason for the change, we would have simply swapped "Increases damage dealt by next weaponskill by 50%" for "Guarantees a critical hit on your next weaponskill. Its damage increases with your critical hit chance" and been done, with at most a bit of Namikiri potency shaved off in favor of Shoha in order to balance out the impact that'd have on SkS's relative value.

[AnotherPerson]

Removing Kaiten, in itself, had absolutely no effect on crit variance.

If I have a skill that increases another skill's damage by 50% (Kaiten), it is no more subject to crit variance than if that original skill just dealt 50% more damage in itself (no Kaiten) and the of the kit is tuned around the reduced opportunity cost in Kenki.

Moreover, Kaiten itself could have just instead guaranteed the critical hit, for --shocked Pikachu face-- roughly the same damage bonus.

If crit variance were the reason for the change, we would have simply swapped "Increases damage dealt by next weaponskill by 50%" for "Guarantees a critical hit on your next weaponskill. Its damage increases with your critical hit chance" and been done, with at most a bit of Namikiri potency shaved off in favor of Shoha in order to balance out the impact that'd have on SkS's relative value.

Oh, nevermind then. I recall hearing people saying Kaiten's damage boost caused a huge gap in Sam's performance, resulting in crit variance actually breaking DSR balance depending whether Sam crits or misses. Hence a portion of the changes were to guarantee crit to stabilize performance and balance, but I guess I recalled incorrectly. I figured even if they did change Kaiten to "guarantee a critical hit", the reasoning behind "removing button bloat" wouldn't then make sense for the changes... not like it made sense in the first place when Shoha & Shoha II exist.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh, nevermind then. I recall hearing people saying Kaiten's damage boost caused a huge gap in Sam's performance, resulting in crit variance actually breaking DSR balance depending whether Sam crits or misses. Hence a portion of the changes were to guarantee crit to stabilize performance and balance, but I guess I recalled incorrectly. I figured even if they did change Kaiten to "guarantee a critical hit", the reasoning behind "removing button bloat" wouldn't then make sense for the changes... not like it made sense in the first place when Shoha & Shoha II exist.

Again, their rationale for removing Kaiten was the same as for removing Power Surge from Dragoon: "Action Bloat". And they're right, it was action bloat.

The problems were that (A) virtually no SAMs complained about "action bloat", let alone from Kaiten (comments were focused instead on "button bloat"), (B) rather than revitalizing the tool to make it more interesting, they just removed it outright, and (C) was that they did nothing to address the (especially, trickle-down) effects removing it would have on gameplay.