Tanking Adjustments - PLD/WAR

[SionDurant]

I will agree that PLD could greatly benifit from a self regen ability, but I guess thats what bards are for , either way it would not be a bad Idea. maybe instead of a 15 second ability that offers little protection is most boss fights (due to it lack of ability to avoid MAGIC damage too), maybe going from 0 to 100% mp would be more apropriate. or an attack that has a mp drain effect.

Anyone else got any written requests for PLD? Once I have everything I'm going to move this endeavor to a new post on gen discussions, of course truncated.

[Orophen]

Not nessicarly true. WAR uses physical damage as its main hate generator. PLD uses abilties mainly to generate hate, where damage delt has no effect to the enmity it generates.

I still haven't maxed out my jobs yet, and I trying to make sure I understand what is going on in terms of PLD vs WAR, since everyone says that WAR is a better tank. Can you please tell me what abilities you use on PLD to secure hate? Because when I tank on Warrior, I use quite a lot of abilities for hate purposes. Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, Antagonize, and Collusion are all used to take and secure hate. Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder is my go to combo for generating enmity over the course of a fight. And the way I understand it, Skull Sunder > Steel Cyclone will give me massive hate by way of the damage it does.

I'm confused because I don't see PLD having that much more than WAR in terms of enmity generating abilities. I want to make sure I'm not missing something here, because I want to be well informed about things. From what I see, PLD has Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, and Cure and Holy Succor for hate generation, am I correct? Then there is Fast Blade > Flat Blade basic enmity combo and then Phalanx > Spirits Within for more massive hate.

I'd like to know what I'm missing here in terms of hate generation and why you say PLD is better at securing and holding hate if that's no trouble. Thanks.

Also, I've never noticed my pld taking that much less damage than my warrior on older content. Is that something that only happens against the harder bosses in the newly released dungeons?

[Gunslinger]

Also, I've never noticed my pld taking that much less damage than my warrior on older content. Is that something that only happens against the harder bosses in the newly released dungeons?

Don't worry, it doesn't happen against harder bosses either, which is part of the problem . PLD can successfully mitigate more damage than Warrior at the moment without a doubt, but when it comes to hard-hitting boss mobs the current system doesn't work for PLD. On trash mobs/non-'HNM' PLD is a better group tank, in theory. But...

1) Who cares if you can mitigate a bunch of damage if you can be one-shotted like a DD on anything "that matters." Yes, we get moves to absorb insane physical attacks (Aegis Boon rules), but that doesn't matter when a monster spams the move every 10 seconds.
2) The monsters that PLD 'excels' at tanking currently aren't of any real threat, which is why WAR is still better - just Steel Cyclone, rinse, repeat
3) Since most raids require a speed run, why would you take marginal damage mitigation over an added DD/tank combo? If you're going to sacrifice that spot, PLD should be leaps and bounds above Warrior for staying alive.

As for enmity, remember that Rampart is AOE on PLD and can provide a huge hate spike. PLD also has War Drum which should be used whenever it's up, which is not a problem thanks to Divine Veil. With PLD's abilities I've never had a huge hate problem so long as DDs realize you're not a WAR.

To me, I think that's an acceptable game play mechanic. I don't mind if WAR has insane single-target hate and PLD requires your party to DD a bit slower, but PLD should at least be compensated in some other way. The current school of thought regarding damage in this game seems to be "all out all the time" thanks to speed runs and the comfort that WAR provides. I think because of this people believe PLD is lacking. I don't think PLD is lacking for hate, just that there is an unreasonable expectation that PLD should match WAR. Let WAR have awesome hate generation, it's what they do. But they shouldn't be a safer tank and faster DD as well. Let them have single-target hate/DD, give PLD the ability to play it safer.

With Warrior my LS does a 7 minute Ifrit, with PLD it's 10+. I don't mind if that's how it is, but the fact that Ifrit is harder as PLD makes you realize something is wrong.

[Arcell]

I think this idea is a band-aid. Lessening the damage PLD takes from certain types of attacks is a much better option and preserves what makes warrior unique.

The last thing this game needs (and currently has) is a race to the top on one stat (HP) to define what makes a tank "a tank." The fact the defense is currently a useless stat on 'bosses' is pathetic (see http://kanican.livejournal.com/); you could basically be the best tank in the game if your WHM/BLM could somehow secure enough HP.

In short: PLD doesn't need more HP, PLD doesn't need more MP, PLD doesn't need more enmity, PLD doesn't need additional party healing. PLD needs damage mitigation that actually works and is unique (the divine veil update was a huge step in the right direction).

I believe the true fix is making defensive stats play a more valuable role for PLD. You don't even need -x% damage reduction as a trait; just give PLD a trait (let's call it "Fearless Focus" or something) that amplifies their defense rating (ie- level 50 trait, multiplies your calculated defense rating vs monsters based on level difference - caps at +10 levels). Maybe x1.1 for +3 levels, x1.3 for +4 levels, x1.7 for +5 levels, and so forth. Since dLvl/attack growth on HNM is so severe there needs to be something exponential. There are better math nerds out there than me to figure out what looks good, so don't take these numbers as my recommendation - just the concept therein.

An approach similar to this restores PLDs place as the "brick wall" tank for big bad physical mobs, lets Warrior excel vs huge magic hits due to their HP, and we all get to stop relying on one stat to define what makes an appropriate tank.

It's also worth noting that this approach (scaling PLD def based on dLvl, to a point) also:

-Prevents PLD from becoming invincible vs "trash mobs," which also helps preserve crowd-control challenges.
-Makes blocks an added bonus rather than a necessity. Yes, more frequent blocks would be nice, but I don't think that's a random block should determine your party's fate. Let that be determined by the tank's skill and ability use.
-Places a strong emphasis on gear progression for PLD - do you choose a DEF piece that will be amplified by your trait, a piece with magic evasion, or a piece with additional enmity? Maybe things become... situational again?
-Capping it at a point (say, max defense is capped at mob level +10) means running up to a level 85 ogre alone still gets you killed - the way it should be.

You might say, "Why not adjust dLvl overall to fix tanking?" All that does is raise the 'tanking' potential for all the 'non-tanks' again. It solves nothing. dLvl is not a bad concept, but the implementation of defensive stats is currently very, very flawed.

While I agree with you completely, I don't see SE completely rewriting the calculations for damage taken because of Paladin. I really wish they would but that's a rather large endeavour and I just don't see SE doing it. That's why I suggested lowering the HP gap, it would fix things if they're going to make HP king essentially. Believe me, I would love it if blocking and defense actually mattered and Paladin could mitigate damage well because of it.

[Daniel_Fury]

I still haven't maxed out my jobs yet, and I trying to make sure I understand what is going on in terms of PLD vs WAR, since everyone says that WAR is a better tank. Can you please tell me what abilities you use on PLD to secure hate? Because when I tank on Warrior, I use quite a lot of abilities for hate purposes. Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, Antagonize, and Collusion are all used to take and secure hate. Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder is my go to combo for generating enmity over the course of a fight. And the way I understand it, Skull Sunder > Steel Cyclone will give me massive hate by way of the damage it does.

I'm confused because I don't see PLD having that much more than WAR in terms of enmity generating abilities. I want to make sure I'm not missing something here, because I want to be well informed about things. From what I see, PLD has Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, and Cure and Holy Succor for hate generation, am I correct? Then there is Fast Blade > Flat Blade basic enmity combo and then Phalanx > Spirits Within for more massive hate.

I'd like to know what I'm missing here in terms of hate generation and why you say PLD is better at securing and holding hate if that's no trouble. Thanks.

Also, I've never noticed my pld taking that much less damage than my warrior on older content. Is that something that only happens against the harder bosses in the newly released dungeons?

Pretty simple answer to this.
Damage is emnity on a 1:1 ratio right? And Paladin has crappy damage? The reason they hold emnity is through their huge modifiers.

Flat blade's emnity modifier is massive and the hate you produce is boosted by the MND stat. I have over 300 mind, and flat blade is amazing. It also has a 10s cooldown which makes it spammable.

My spirits within hits about 400 damage on chimera on full HP. It has a emnity modifier in it for around 1.5x, this is about a 600 emnity spike. Chuck a sentinel on before this and you get even more hate out of this.

Rampart is AOE. Every person it hits, it generates hate for. The catch is they must be in the enemies hate table so not the best skill to start a fight with.

On a side note, I do not have a problem holding hate or tanking as a Paladin for boss fights.

Warrior is without doubt the best tank for multiple enemies. War drum, Flash and Rampart do not have the flexibility to keep up with Steel Cyclone, especially if it is antagonized.

[Enfarious]

Pretty simple answer to this.
Damage is emnity on a 1:1 ratio right? And Paladin has crappy damage? The reason they hold emnity is through their huge modifiers.

Flat blade's emnity modifier is massive and the hate you produce is boosted by the MND stat. I have over 300 mind, and flat blade is amazing. It also has a 10s cooldown which makes it spammable.

My spirits within hits about 400 damage on chimera on full HP. It has a emnity modifier in it for around 1.5x, this is about a 600 emnity spike. Chuck a sentinel on before this and you get even more hate out of this.

Rampart is AOE. Every person it hits, it generates hate for. The catch is they must be in the enemies hate table so not the best skill to start a fight with.

On a side note, I do not have a problem holding hate or tanking as a Paladin for boss fights.

Warrior is without doubt the best tank for multiple enemies. War drum, Flash and Rampart do not have the flexibility to keep up with Steel Cyclone, especially if it is antagonized.

You left out that a big piece of the reason people lean toward war over pld is that war has an obscene amnt of hp, and since dmg mitigation is less than well implemented even on a class that should have it in spades like pld, huge hp pool is the better choice since a whm can cure for 10k hp in a single cast(it's an exaggeration). Also for the sake of speed running dungeons a wars dmg output is preferred to a plds who currently doesn't bring tons to the table.

[Daniel_Fury]

You left out that a big piece of the reason people lean toward war over pld is that war has an obscene amnt of hp, and since dmg mitigation is less than well implemented even on a class that should have it in spades like pld, huge hp pool is the better choice since a whm can cure for 10k hp in a single cast(it's an exaggeration). Also for the sake of speed running dungeons a wars dmg output is preferred to a plds who currently doesn't bring tons to the table.

Ahh. I was just stating why Paladin can hold hate, since someone asked. You're right though.
With my full HP gear I'm too close to having 5K HP on WAR and about 4.2K on PLD.
However, having 4k hp is more than enough to tank and I have no issues staying alive in any boss fight to date while playing PLD.
People do prefer Warrior though and no matter how you look at it, unless you're a WAR that can't tank with only one WHM, that damage output is what people crave!
There is one thing people overlook though.
When trying to fight a boss like Chimera, without a cookie cutter setup, like a full melee DPS group, A PLD will be more useful in a situation like this.
Once again WAR would have better damage and more HP but it will never support your melee like a PLD can. Unfortuantely, not many people do this as they keep their safety hard hats on.

[Airget]

Creating content that leaves no class out is hard to produce since players will always find themselves going with the strat that makes things the easiest. When it comes to PLD/WAR tank issue I do see the issues since the games concept is designed on dealing damage throughout the battle, but Paladin goes against this since they sacrifice the damage they are able to deal to reduce damage taken and act as more of a support. However in content where you need 8 players for x event the abilities which PLD offer are not as needed when you can easily grab 2 WHM to support the Warrior that's tanking with their ability to cure large amount as well as WAR's natural High HP.

I think the trick to fixing Paladin is making it where they sacrifice their enmity to dish out heavy damage while attempting to balance those abilities while still being able to hold hate. A warrior's gimmick is basically dishing out heavy damage and using abilities to heal himself through battle while having support from mages and throwing out defensive abilities and voking when needed.

A Paladin is suppose to take less damage and support those around him but it doesn't help to improve the overall flow of battle it just helps alleviate any damage that might be taken.

Let's take Cover for example. 8 yalms isn't really that far so it might work on a DD but overall it's effects aren't useful with the current flow of battle. Rather then have an ability that can redirect damage for one player perhaps Cover could be changed to
"Holy Shield"
-Produces a barrier reducing damage taken by all allies (excluding user) by 25% and redirecting it to User, Effect wears off upon using Spirits Within-

Then change Spirits to this
"Spirits Within"
Deals Dmg, increased when "Holy Shield" is active. As well as change the combo action to have dmg influenced by current enmity rather then current HP.
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Hm, I can't think of where to fit enmity reducing type of moves but I think the above could improve some of PLD's capabilities but the other idea is this.

When it comes to the two defined as tanks,Warrior is one that takes hit so they should have the higher of physical damage taken however their constitution is weaker to magic. While Paladin can take better defense towards magic but they aren't as good as taking a physical hit unless they block it.

In a sense I see this
WAR=80% physical dmg taken, 130% magic dmg taken
PLD=100% physical dmg taken, 70% magic, 50% physical dmg taken with shield.

Then how about changing the following 4 abilities,
Aegis Boon=Improves block rate by 25% when active
Phalanx====10% chance to improves block rate by 25% for 5 seconds
Shield Bash=Improves block rate by 25% for 10 seconds
War Drum==Improves block rate by 50% for 10 seconds

I'd like to think with the slight change to these 4 abilities one may see a change to the amount of blocking they do on Paladin

Maybe as a last change, instead of the lame ability that Tempered Will offers now change it to one that influences shield block rate.

Keep the 180 recast but make it where it increases you block rate by 50% for 60 but negates you from being able to use shield counter abilities or shield bash while active. The idea then would be that Tempered Will focuses you on blocking but then you sacrifice your ability to use skills that require a shield since you're more focused on the mob rather then using your shield as a weapon.
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It's hard to say, perhaps the above could work in reducing the amount of dmg a PLD takes while slightly increasing their dmg but not so much in a way that it outshines WAR.

[Enfarious]

Ahh. I was just stating why Paladin can hold hate, since someone asked. You're right though.
With my full HP gear I'm too close to having 5K HP on WAR and about 4.2K on PLD.
However, having 4k hp is more than enough to tank and I have no issues staying alive in any boss fight to date while playing PLD.
People do prefer Warrior though and no matter how you look at it, unless you're a WAR that can't tank with only one WHM, that damage output is what people crave!
There is one thing people overlook though.
When trying to fight a boss like Chimera, without a cookie cutter setup, like a full melee DPS group, A PLD will be more useful in a situation like this.
Once again WAR would have better damage and more HP but it will never support your melee like a PLD can. Unfortuantely, not many people do this as they keep their safety hard hats on.

I don't disagree they[pld] do hold hate well, and I've never really seen one that was played well lose it, I have seen a 50 pld get one shot w/ ~4k hp, it was hilarious even when we wiped as a result. I don't think for an instant it was a result of bad play on anyone's part, or a lack of gear/hp, but rather just a fluke that could have happened to anyone.
The other part of the problem, not so much on fights w/ a single boss, but other times is that pld really has no crowd hate control and since a single cure from your whm can shift hate on any mobs that aren't controlled it's a big problem. That's more a problem with mob group claiming/enmity than with the classes/jobs though.

Your absolutley right about people always looking for the safest/easiest way, I'm not against this, since at the end of the day it's really all about getting what your after and the fastest way makes sense. I think it's one of the fundemental flaws in the content that we have at the moment. Everything was built for A.D.D. play, nothing is long and slow, or even a happy medium, and pld with proper dmg mitigation and support skills is a true champion in the long and slow, where your mages end up at the low end of thier mp pools and the only reason they haven't run out completely is cause that pld has -35% pdt and -45% mdt, where the war needed more cures and we wiped cause the mages ran outta mp.
Bosses that shift between pdt and mdt modes, and switch between dmg output types in a less predictable fashion.

But I digress. Mostly I'm just saying I agree.

[Daniel_Fury]

I don't disagree they[pld] do hold hate well, and I've never really seen one that was played well lose it, I have seen a 50 pld get one shot w/ ~4k hp, it was hilarious even when we wiped as a result. I don't think for an instant it was a result of bad play on anyone's part, or a lack of gear/hp, but rather just a fluke that could have happened to anyone.
The other part of the problem, not so much on fights w/ a single boss, but other times is that pld really has no crowd hate control and since a single cure from your whm can shift hate on any mobs that aren't controlled it's a big problem. That's more a problem with mob group claiming/enmity than with the classes/jobs though.

Your absolutley right about people always looking for the safest/easiest way, I'm not against this, since at the end of the day it's really all about getting what your after and the fastest way makes sense. I think it's one of the fundemental flaws in the content that we have at the moment. Everything was built for A.D.D. play, nothing is long and slow, or even a happy medium, and pld with proper dmg mitigation and support skills is a true champion in the long and slow, where your mages end up at the low end of thier mp pools and the only reason they haven't run out completely is cause that pld has -35% pdt and -45% mdt, where the war needed more cures and we wiped cause the mages ran outta mp.
Bosses that shift between pdt and mdt modes, and switch between dmg output types in a less predictable fashion.

But I digress. Mostly I'm just saying I agree.

I'm glad we agree lol.

I know those unfortunate moments where people do get one shotted, (my guess is Coin Counter?) and I'm sure every tank has experienced it as part of the learning curve, it sucks. lol

Well, to stay on topic, I only have 2 fixes/addon that I would like to see.

Rampart - Make this deal with M DEF again. I know the elemental resistances help alot, from what I've seen. AoE Rampart your party and less people are going to take damage from AoE attacks, as well as damage reduction for M. Attacks directed at the PLD. This will once again help warrior I guess, so add the M.Def part as a trait.

Greatsword - Alot of people will disagree, but hell, I love greatswords and I miss them so much. That will at least GIVE us a reason to parry and allow our damage output to increase.