Tanking Adjustments - PLD/WAR

[Daniel_Fury]

I still haven't maxed out my jobs yet, and I trying to make sure I understand what is going on in terms of PLD vs WAR, since everyone says that WAR is a better tank. Can you please tell me what abilities you use on PLD to secure hate? Because when I tank on Warrior, I use quite a lot of abilities for hate purposes. Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, Antagonize, and Collusion are all used to take and secure hate. Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder is my go to combo for generating enmity over the course of a fight. And the way I understand it, Skull Sunder > Steel Cyclone will give me massive hate by way of the damage it does.

I'm confused because I don't see PLD having that much more than WAR in terms of enmity generating abilities. I want to make sure I'm not missing something here, because I want to be well informed about things. From what I see, PLD has Sentinel, Rampart, Flash, Provoke, and Cure and Holy Succor for hate generation, am I correct? Then there is Fast Blade > Flat Blade basic enmity combo and then Phalanx > Spirits Within for more massive hate.

I'd like to know what I'm missing here in terms of hate generation and why you say PLD is better at securing and holding hate if that's no trouble. Thanks.

Also, I've never noticed my pld taking that much less damage than my warrior on older content. Is that something that only happens against the harder bosses in the newly released dungeons?

Pretty simple answer to this.
Damage is emnity on a 1:1 ratio right? And Paladin has crappy damage? The reason they hold emnity is through their huge modifiers.

Flat blade's emnity modifier is massive and the hate you produce is boosted by the MND stat. I have over 300 mind, and flat blade is amazing. It also has a 10s cooldown which makes it spammable.

My spirits within hits about 400 damage on chimera on full HP. It has a emnity modifier in it for around 1.5x, this is about a 600 emnity spike. Chuck a sentinel on before this and you get even more hate out of this.

Rampart is AOE. Every person it hits, it generates hate for. The catch is they must be in the enemies hate table so not the best skill to start a fight with.

On a side note, I do not have a problem holding hate or tanking as a Paladin for boss fights.

Warrior is without doubt the best tank for multiple enemies. War drum, Flash and Rampart do not have the flexibility to keep up with Steel Cyclone, especially if it is antagonized.

[Enfarious]

Pretty simple answer to this.
Damage is emnity on a 1:1 ratio right? And Paladin has crappy damage? The reason they hold emnity is through their huge modifiers.

Flat blade's emnity modifier is massive and the hate you produce is boosted by the MND stat. I have over 300 mind, and flat blade is amazing. It also has a 10s cooldown which makes it spammable.

My spirits within hits about 400 damage on chimera on full HP. It has a emnity modifier in it for around 1.5x, this is about a 600 emnity spike. Chuck a sentinel on before this and you get even more hate out of this.

Rampart is AOE. Every person it hits, it generates hate for. The catch is they must be in the enemies hate table so not the best skill to start a fight with.

On a side note, I do not have a problem holding hate or tanking as a Paladin for boss fights.

Warrior is without doubt the best tank for multiple enemies. War drum, Flash and Rampart do not have the flexibility to keep up with Steel Cyclone, especially if it is antagonized.

You left out that a big piece of the reason people lean toward war over pld is that war has an obscene amnt of hp, and since dmg mitigation is less than well implemented even on a class that should have it in spades like pld, huge hp pool is the better choice since a whm can cure for 10k hp in a single cast(it's an exaggeration). Also for the sake of speed running dungeons a wars dmg output is preferred to a plds who currently doesn't bring tons to the table.

[Daniel_Fury]

You left out that a big piece of the reason people lean toward war over pld is that war has an obscene amnt of hp, and since dmg mitigation is less than well implemented even on a class that should have it in spades like pld, huge hp pool is the better choice since a whm can cure for 10k hp in a single cast(it's an exaggeration). Also for the sake of speed running dungeons a wars dmg output is preferred to a plds who currently doesn't bring tons to the table.

Ahh. I was just stating why Paladin can hold hate, since someone asked. You're right though.
With my full HP gear I'm too close to having 5K HP on WAR and about 4.2K on PLD.
However, having 4k hp is more than enough to tank and I have no issues staying alive in any boss fight to date while playing PLD.
People do prefer Warrior though and no matter how you look at it, unless you're a WAR that can't tank with only one WHM, that damage output is what people crave!
There is one thing people overlook though.
When trying to fight a boss like Chimera, without a cookie cutter setup, like a full melee DPS group, A PLD will be more useful in a situation like this.
Once again WAR would have better damage and more HP but it will never support your melee like a PLD can. Unfortuantely, not many people do this as they keep their safety hard hats on.

[Enfarious]

Ahh. I was just stating why Paladin can hold hate, since someone asked. You're right though.
With my full HP gear I'm too close to having 5K HP on WAR and about 4.2K on PLD.
However, having 4k hp is more than enough to tank and I have no issues staying alive in any boss fight to date while playing PLD.
People do prefer Warrior though and no matter how you look at it, unless you're a WAR that can't tank with only one WHM, that damage output is what people crave!
There is one thing people overlook though.
When trying to fight a boss like Chimera, without a cookie cutter setup, like a full melee DPS group, A PLD will be more useful in a situation like this.
Once again WAR would have better damage and more HP but it will never support your melee like a PLD can. Unfortuantely, not many people do this as they keep their safety hard hats on.

I don't disagree they[pld] do hold hate well, and I've never really seen one that was played well lose it, I have seen a 50 pld get one shot w/ ~4k hp, it was hilarious even when we wiped as a result. I don't think for an instant it was a result of bad play on anyone's part, or a lack of gear/hp, but rather just a fluke that could have happened to anyone.
The other part of the problem, not so much on fights w/ a single boss, but other times is that pld really has no crowd hate control and since a single cure from your whm can shift hate on any mobs that aren't controlled it's a big problem. That's more a problem with mob group claiming/enmity than with the classes/jobs though.

Your absolutley right about people always looking for the safest/easiest way, I'm not against this, since at the end of the day it's really all about getting what your after and the fastest way makes sense. I think it's one of the fundemental flaws in the content that we have at the moment. Everything was built for A.D.D. play, nothing is long and slow, or even a happy medium, and pld with proper dmg mitigation and support skills is a true champion in the long and slow, where your mages end up at the low end of thier mp pools and the only reason they haven't run out completely is cause that pld has -35% pdt and -45% mdt, where the war needed more cures and we wiped cause the mages ran outta mp.
Bosses that shift between pdt and mdt modes, and switch between dmg output types in a less predictable fashion.

But I digress. Mostly I'm just saying I agree.

[Daniel_Fury]

I don't disagree they[pld] do hold hate well, and I've never really seen one that was played well lose it, I have seen a 50 pld get one shot w/ ~4k hp, it was hilarious even when we wiped as a result. I don't think for an instant it was a result of bad play on anyone's part, or a lack of gear/hp, but rather just a fluke that could have happened to anyone.
The other part of the problem, not so much on fights w/ a single boss, but other times is that pld really has no crowd hate control and since a single cure from your whm can shift hate on any mobs that aren't controlled it's a big problem. That's more a problem with mob group claiming/enmity than with the classes/jobs though.

Your absolutley right about people always looking for the safest/easiest way, I'm not against this, since at the end of the day it's really all about getting what your after and the fastest way makes sense. I think it's one of the fundemental flaws in the content that we have at the moment. Everything was built for A.D.D. play, nothing is long and slow, or even a happy medium, and pld with proper dmg mitigation and support skills is a true champion in the long and slow, where your mages end up at the low end of thier mp pools and the only reason they haven't run out completely is cause that pld has -35% pdt and -45% mdt, where the war needed more cures and we wiped cause the mages ran outta mp.
Bosses that shift between pdt and mdt modes, and switch between dmg output types in a less predictable fashion.

But I digress. Mostly I'm just saying I agree.

I'm glad we agree lol.

I know those unfortunate moments where people do get one shotted, (my guess is Coin Counter?) and I'm sure every tank has experienced it as part of the learning curve, it sucks. lol

Well, to stay on topic, I only have 2 fixes/addon that I would like to see.

Rampart - Make this deal with M DEF again. I know the elemental resistances help alot, from what I've seen. AoE Rampart your party and less people are going to take damage from AoE attacks, as well as damage reduction for M. Attacks directed at the PLD. This will once again help warrior I guess, so add the M.Def part as a trait.

Greatsword - Alot of people will disagree, but hell, I love greatswords and I miss them so much. That will at least GIVE us a reason to parry and allow our damage output to increase.

[Enfarious]

I'm glad we agree lol.

I know those unfortunate moments where people do get one shotted, (my guess is Coin Counter?) and I'm sure every tank has experienced it as part of the learning curve, it sucks. lol

Well, to stay on topic, I only have 2 fixes/addon that I would like to see.

Rampart - Make this deal with M DEF again. I know the elemental resistances help alot, from what I've seen. AoE Rampart your party and less people are going to take damage from AoE attacks, as well as damage reduction for M. Attacks directed at the PLD. This will once again help warrior I guess, so add the M.Def part as a trait.

Greatsword - Alot of people will disagree, but hell, I love greatswords and I miss them so much. That will at least GIVE us a reason to parry and allow our damage output to increase.

Enhanced Rampart(trait) - Adds a bonus to Def & M.Def (or a -P/MDT% reasonable not 90% but not 2% either)and extends duration of Rampart(enough to make it possible to maintain indefinitely or makes it into a remains in effect until reused), this trait only alters the effect on the person that uses the ability. ???

I think adding a few different types of weapons to each job/class would be really nice. Pug/Mnk w/ a staff, Mrd/War w/ a 2-handed Hammer, Cnj/Whm and Thm/Blm essentially already have this too along with their absurd dmg output they can switch between 2handed or 1handed w/ a shield, they shouldn't be the only ones to get something like this, I mean really they already have the stopping power to make other jobs look gimp, to let them have the gear options to boot that's just mean.....

God I'm so good at getting off topic