Tanking Adjustments - PLD/WAR

[SionDurant]

Summary: The Warrior tank at the moment appears to be the best option for a tank in all encounters, it can hold aoe threat reliably, take damage effectively and dish it out to hold single target aggression with ease. Proposed below are changes which would make Paladin a more valued member of the team, without stealing the thunder of the mighty warrior.

The changes are not intended to make Paladin’s DD’ers, but to embody their described role as the cornerstone of the Party’s defenses. Also nothing suggested below I believe will ever be competitive with the might of a well played Dragoon, Monk , or Black Mage’s damage output, nor is that a desired feature of any true tank lover to be on a tanking class.

Please do not nerf Warriors to make Paladins more attractive! Some of the changes will help solo play while leveling/questing less of a headache as well for both classes.

Note: The fields below are color coded in accordance to the Job referred to. Blue for PLD, Red for WAR, Green for Both.

PLD Specific - Changes to make PLD a valued member of any Party, and fit the description given as being the cornerstone of the Party’s defense.

WAR Specific- Changes to preserve the pride Warrior carries as the meanest, hardest hitting and most intimidating tank in the Party in the face of proposed PLD changes. C’mon, look at that helmet!

Both

Mitigation
o Switch trait obtained at Lv. 40 for improved physical defense by 12 to 10-25% damage reduction overall, similar to Paladin’s trait in XI; this made them competitive in the face of the elusive Ninja.

o Change calculation of VIT to begin to incorporate higher block rate, similar to how Warrior’s version of VIT increases AA.


• Enmity Production & Redirection

o Add a significant enmity bonus to Holy Succor, staple enmity increase for healing spells to Paladin; most likely as an addition to Rampart or Divine Veil, or perhaps just a trait on GLA to give +10-15 Enmity from casting ANY healing spell.

o Not sure if it’s possible, but have all enmity produced by a healer casting spells on Paladin during the effect of Divine Veil be transferred to the Paladin, after all a Paladin sending healing energy every which direction is pretty daunting /irritating to an evildoer I’d think.

o Cover to also steal enmity from target. (This could be awesome when used with a Warrior in trouble, or for after the untimely doom of our Paladin hero to steal agro off of whomever Ifrit wants to incinerate for their insolence)


• Accuracy
o Synopsis: Tanks should not miss (as often as they do anyway), they shouldn’t hold agro with an iron fist either! They should be challenged by their DD’ing peers, but they should not miss so frequently; they’re trained and calculated defenders. It’s also no fun to see miss repeatedly, I mean we don’t exactly get fancy moves like Jump or awesome spells.

o Incorporation of an ACC for STR calculation. (IE 3 STR = 1 ACC)

o Incorporation of an ACC for MND calculation. (IE 3 MND = 1 ACC)
 Alternatives:
 Increase accuracy of all enmity based Weapon Skills, save those intended to have low accuracy by devs.
 Development of arms which have higher +ACC ratings, or giving MRD/GLA arms natural acc pools to arms.


• Resources
o Slightly higher TP generation to assure continual management of large amounts of trash mobs on high pulls. (With cure/succor blasting out higher Enmity, Warrior will need some love)
 Alternative:
 Significant TP generation for damage sustained to Warrior from enemy mobs/players some day in pvp too.

o MP Regen trait, unlocking of the spell Blessed Mind (assuming it’s a spell as I can’t use while silenced on my WHM) to GLA, or implementation of a significant MP Regen mechanic to Divine Veil.
 Alternatives:
 Addition of MP Regen up to 25% over x amount of time after a successful strike from Spirits Within.
 MP Regen per damage mitigated via shield blocks (at a reasonable percentage).

o Abstract Analysis: I hate to inject WoW into this discussion, but, the Paladin class there has an ability which produces “Mana” per successful use of the ability “Judgement” on targets at a percentage of “Mana” over time returned. This is a fun mechanic for magical tanks. Please don’t hate me.


Another Player's Thoughts, by Darkvision

* Natural magic damage mitigation
* * starting at -5% MDT, MND increases % reduction max -25%

* Decent accuracy
* * This should not hurt as they do alot less dmg but would be great not to wiff WS for combo's

* Improved Defence mitigation
* * A natural PDT of ~10-15% reduction

* Better shield mastery
* * Increase the block rate

* Natural reduction of spell interuptions
* * ~50-60% reduction at max level

I think the changes above, mixed with an MP Regen mechanism based on class, not on AF as AF inevitably won't be forever, would be nice.

[Dzian]

I'd once suggested changing a plds attributes from str+mnd to dex+vit for similar reasons to some of your post.

a problem i see with paladin is you can either put your stats into dex+vit for hp and blockrate etc etc overall survivability. or you can put them in str+mnd for damage and as such emnity generation related to damage. so its a trade off between staying alive and generating hate i think.

so yeah i kinda think putting a glads damage modifiers into dex and vit would kinda make things a bit more uniform and less of a trade off

[SionDurant]

I'd once suggested changing a plds attributes from str+mnd to dex+vit for similar reasons to some of your post.

a problem i see with paladin is you can either put your stats into dex+vit for hp and blockrate etc etc overall survivability. or you can put them in str+mnd for damage and as such emnity generation related to damage. so its a trade off between staying alive and generating hate i think.

so yeah i kinda think putting a glads damage modifiers into dex and vit would kinda make things a bit more uniform and less of a trade off

Only problem with that is cure and succor were meant to be used, on xi it was at a point an aggro grabber. Having the class operate off of VIT and MND with better calculations of course seems the best route. We aren't really supposed to have a lot of damage by design.

DEX also won't help with blocking or hitting ( not noticeably anyway ) most PLDs either leave points at 0 or go VIT / MND for that reason.

It's definite that something needs to be done either by changing what stats PLD uses or changing overall calculations of stats across the board.

[Raldo]

Don't forget that STR is also a modifier for the amount of damage mitigated by a shield block, or at least it used to be. GLD/PLD just has a lot of stats to choose from. I can't really chime in on anything else here because I don't play GLD/PLD, but I do recall the block rate to be absolutely abysmal while I was leveling it.

[SionDurant]

Don't forget that STR is also a modifier for the amount of damage mitigated by a shield block, or at least it used to be. GLD/PLD just has a lot of stats to choose from. I can't really chime in on anything else here because I don't play GLD/PLD, but I do recall the block rate to be absolutely abysmal while I was leveling it.

You're right, bonus 1 is MND, bonus 2 is STR. But that's supposedly only auto attack damage.

The thing of it is, from testing I've seen done for PLD specifically MND shows the highest yield of actual change in combat offensively.

[SionDurant]

You're right, bonus 1 is MND, bonus 2 is STR. But that's supposedly only auto attack damage.

The thing of it is, from testing I've seen done for PLD specifically MND shows the highest yield of actual change in combat offensively.

I apologize,

That was incorrect what I said, STR effecting atk shows the highest immediate performance for auto attack and some weapon skills, but our most important enmity based combo, fast and flat blade is better effected by MND.

[Arcell]

I dunno, all I really think needs to happen to bring Paladin back into the light is lessen the HP gap between WAR and PLD (within about 300), make blocking useful and actually mitigate damage.

On the enmity and MP side of things PLD is fine, especially considering the Enhanced Cover mechanic they've been hiding the specifics on until recently. I hear most PLDs can keep their mp up quite high while using it.

[Gunslinger]

I dunno, all I really think needs to happen to bring Paladin back into the light is lessen the HP gap between WAR and PLD (within about 300).

I think this idea is a band-aid. Lessening the damage PLD takes from certain types of attacks is a much better option and preserves what makes warrior unique.

The last thing this game needs (and currently has) is a race to the top on one stat (HP) to define what makes a tank "a tank." The fact the defense is currently a useless stat on 'bosses' is pathetic (see http://kanican.livejournal.com/); you could basically be the best tank in the game if your WHM/BLM could somehow secure enough HP.

In short: PLD doesn't need more HP, PLD doesn't need more MP, PLD doesn't need more enmity, PLD doesn't need additional party healing. PLD needs damage mitigation that actually works and is unique (the divine veil update was a huge step in the right direction).

I believe the true fix is making defensive stats play a more valuable role for PLD. You don't even need -x% damage reduction as a trait; just give PLD a trait (let's call it "Fearless Focus" or something) that amplifies their defense rating (ie- level 50 trait, multiplies your calculated defense rating vs monsters based on level difference - caps at +10 levels). Maybe x1.1 for +3 levels, x1.3 for +4 levels, x1.7 for +5 levels, and so forth. Since dLvl/attack growth on HNM is so severe there needs to be something exponential. There are better math nerds out there than me to figure out what looks good, so don't take these numbers as my recommendation - just the concept therein.

An approach similar to this restores PLDs place as the "brick wall" tank for big bad physical mobs, lets Warrior excel vs huge magic hits due to their HP, and we all get to stop relying on one stat to define what makes an appropriate tank.

It's also worth noting that this approach (scaling PLD def based on dLvl, to a point) also:

-Prevents PLD from becoming invincible vs "trash mobs," which also helps preserve crowd-control challenges.
-Makes blocks an added bonus rather than a necessity. Yes, more frequent blocks would be nice, but I don't think that's a random block should determine your party's fate. Let that be determined by the tank's skill and ability use.
-Places a strong emphasis on gear progression for PLD - do you choose a DEF piece that will be amplified by your trait, a piece with magic evasion, or a piece with additional enmity? Maybe things become... situational again?
-Capping it at a point (say, max defense is capped at mob level +10) means running up to a level 85 ogre alone still gets you killed - the way it should be.

You might say, "Why not adjust dLvl overall to fix tanking?" All that does is raise the 'tanking' potential for all the 'non-tanks' again. It solves nothing. dLvl is not a bad concept, but the implementation of defensive stats is currently very, very flawed.

[Arcell]

I think this idea is a band-aid. Lessening the damage PLD takes from certain types of attacks is a much better option and preserves what makes warrior unique.

The last thing this game needs (and currently has) is a race to the top on one stat (HP) to define what makes a tank "a tank." The fact the defense is currently a useless stat on 'bosses' is pathetic (see http://kanican.livejournal.com/); you could basically be the best tank in the game if your WHM/BLM could somehow secure enough HP.

In short: PLD doesn't need more HP, PLD doesn't need more MP, PLD doesn't need more enmity, PLD doesn't need additional party healing. PLD needs damage mitigation that actually works and is unique (the divine veil update was a huge step in the right direction).

I believe the true fix is making defensive stats play a more valuable role for PLD. You don't even need -x% damage reduction as a trait; just give PLD a trait (let's call it "Fearless Focus" or something) that amplifies their defense rating (ie- level 50 trait, multiplies your calculated defense rating vs monsters based on level difference - caps at +10 levels). Maybe x1.1 for +3 levels, x1.3 for +4 levels, x1.7 for +5 levels, and so forth. Since dLvl/attack growth on HNM is so severe there needs to be something exponential. There are better math nerds out there than me to figure out what looks good, so don't take these numbers as my recommendation - just the concept therein.

An approach similar to this restores PLDs place as the "brick wall" tank for big bad physical mobs, lets Warrior excel vs huge magic hits due to their HP, and we all get to stop relying on one stat to define what makes an appropriate tank.

It's also worth noting that this approach (scaling PLD def based on dLvl, to a point) also:

-Prevents PLD from becoming invincible vs "trash mobs," which also helps preserve crowd-control challenges.
-Makes blocks an added bonus rather than a necessity. Yes, more frequent blocks would be nice, but I don't think that's a random block should determine your party's fate. Let that be determined by the tank's skill and ability use.
-Places a strong emphasis on gear progression for PLD - do you choose a DEF piece that will be amplified by your trait, a piece with magic evasion, or a piece with additional enmity? Maybe things become... situational again?
-Capping it at a point (say, max defense is capped at mob level +10) means running up to a level 85 ogre alone still gets you killed - the way it should be.

You might say, "Why not adjust dLvl overall to fix tanking?" All that does is raise the 'tanking' potential for all the 'non-tanks' again. It solves nothing. dLvl is not a bad concept, but the implementation of defensive stats is currently very, very flawed.

While I agree with you completely, I don't see SE completely rewriting the calculations for damage taken because of Paladin. I really wish they would but that's a rather large endeavour and I just don't see SE doing it. That's why I suggested lowering the HP gap, it would fix things if they're going to make HP king essentially. Believe me, I would love it if blocking and defense actually mattered and Paladin could mitigate damage well because of it.

[Duelle]

In short: PLD doesn't need more HP, PLD doesn't need more MP, PLD doesn't need more enmity, PLD doesn't need additional party healing. PLD needs damage mitigation that actually works and is unique (the divine veil update was a huge step in the right direction).

The problem currently in place is that there's nothing in terms of real mitigation that naturally scales as the PLD goes higher in level. Mitigation is also not really supported by itemization (XI had the devs implement a very stupid stat in the form of "Reduces physical/magic damage taken by X%").

I believe the true fix is making defensive stats play a more valuable role for PLD. You don't even need -x% damage reduction as a trait; just give PLD a trait (let's call it "Fearless Focus" or something) that amplifies their defense rating (ie- level 50 trait, multiplies your calculated defense rating vs monsters based on level difference - caps at +10 levels). Maybe x1.1 for +3 levels, x1.3 for +4 levels, x1.7 for +5 levels, and so forth.

I can partially agree here. Tanks should definitely get more out of armor defense ratings. At the same time, I think this value in itself should probably cap at some number - say, against lv50 mobs you need 700 defense to cap mitigation or hit diminishing returns.

An approach similar to this restores PLDs place as the "brick wall" tank for big bad physical mobs, lets Warrior excel vs huge magic hits due to their HP, and we all get to stop relying on one stat to define what makes an appropriate tank.

This opens the door for niche tanking, which I am staunchly against. PLD and WAR should both be viable choices for the tank role. Niche tanks cause more trouble than they're worth down the line.

-Makes blocks an added bonus rather than a necessity. Yes, more frequent blocks would be nice, but I don't think that's a random block should determine your party's fate. Let that be determined by the tank's skill and ability use.

Considering how much of GLA/PLD's skills depend on shield blocks (specially stuff like War Drum), I'm not so much in favor of this.

-Places a strong emphasis on gear progression for PLD - do you choose a DEF piece that will be amplified by your trait, a piece with magic evasion, or a piece with additional enmity? Maybe things become... situational again?

Situational is bad. VERY bad given the current and well-placed limitations on gear swaps.

You might say, "Why not adjust dLvl overall to fix tanking?" All that does is raise the 'tanking' potential for all the 'non-tanks' again. It solves nothing. dLvl is not a bad concept, but the implementation of defensive stats is currently very, very flawed.

Taking level correction (what you call dLvl) to extremes is not a good idea, and something that should be considered when designing content for 2.0.

Level correction screws over numerous other factors. This is why some modern MMOs have "elite", "hero" and "Paragon" brackets for mobs that are designed as part of group content, which then allows the devs to make a monster as tough as they want without level correction throwing a wrench into things and messing up things for people. Ideally, if we have a lv50 dungeon, then all mobs are lv50 under that special bracket that gives them higher stats, higher damage potential and so on without level correction forcing you to stack too much accuracy or +attack to overcome the difference in level. Likewise bosses could have their own bracket that follows the tried and true "dungeon level +3" rule, which again allows the devs to implement as many mechanics as they want in the fight without going overboard on having to overcome level correction.