Tanking Adjustments - PLD/WAR

[Madruk]

None of those suggestions would encourage use of a paladin over a warrior simply because the warrior adds more damage and you don't need more mitigation to complete any of the current content with ease. The "raids" encourage speed and a paladin offers nothing that would complete them more efficiently.

Until there's content that absolutely requires a paladin (doubtful till 2.0, and even then it's a mild advantage single target tanking), warriors will still be king.

[Arkine]

None of those suggestions would encourage use of a paladin over a warrior simply because the warrior adds more damage and you don't need more mitigation to complete any of the current content with ease. The "raids" encourage speed and a paladin offers nothing that would complete them more efficiently.

Until there's content that absolutely requires a paladin (doubtful till 2.0, and even then it's a mild advantage single target tanking), warriors will still be king.

Maybe if the adjustments for PLD's mitigation is high enough that it eliminates the need for 2 WHMs in favor of another DPS, wouldn't that solve the issue?

Personally, if they would change Divine veil from a 40sec recast 20sec ability to a stance like Rampage and Berserk (Maybe All damage taken -25~40% while drastically reducing attack, making Spirits Within your only "real" damaging attack) That would fill my PLD = 1 WHM, WAR = 2WHMs criteria and I'd be alot more than satisfied.

[Madruk]

I think really the only debate can be on paladin usefulness in boss fights, dungeon trash clearing a warrior is superior. Even then, most boss fights currently can be done reliably with 1 whm as a warrior tank. There's just not enough justification to bring a paladin over a warrior with how the content is designed.

[SionDurant]

None of those suggestions would encourage use of a paladin over a warrior simply because the warrior adds more damage and you don't need more mitigation to complete any of the current content with ease. The "raids" encourage speed and a paladin offers nothing that would complete them more efficiently.

Until there's content that absolutely requires a paladin (doubtful till 2.0, and even then it's a mild advantage single target tanking), warriors will still be king.

Well it's always going to be a matter of opinion, but on tougher fights where a resilient tank will be needed, something with higher mitigation will be appreciated. Either way though as they are now, Paladins are in somewhat of a lackluster shape.

If anyone's after more damage for the paladin, they will be sad. The only paladin to ever hit any kind of hard in the whole FF series was Cecil Harvey, but he was all kinds of amazing. I could see a bit of burst maybe being thrown our way but I'm not expecting anything. I will say I wish war drum was harder hitting, I miss Circle Slash :-(.

SE won't ever add more damage than rival tanks to us, which probably is a good thing, it's good to have a different variety in tanks.

[Veridian]

"PLD doesn't need more enmity" - Gungslinger. What kind of super paladins have you been partying with? Send some towards Sargatanas please >>;
I glance at the above and people speak of resilience and buffing pld with mitigation...look, none of that matters if they lose threat. And PLD does lose threat quite easily compared to warrior. Just go with a few pick up groups into AV, fight Coincounter with a PLD and see for yourself. Or go into Ifrit with a PLD, they take a while to build up threat compared to warrior. I have not partied with a single PLD that can hold threat consistently ever since the class came out, but warriors have been doing fine is what I have noticed. Not only that, warriors just deal more damage in addition to being the tank, making them more valuable to end boss fights faster. Madruk's right, there is no justification in using PLD over WAR right now.

[Aceofspades]

"PLD doesn't need more enmity" - Gungslinger. What kind of super paladins have you been partying with? Send some towards Sargatanas please >>;
I glance at the above and people speak of resilience and buffing pld with mitigation...look, none of that matters if they lose threat. And PLD does lose threat quite easily compared to warrior. Just go with a few pick up groups into AV, fight Coincounter with a PLD and see for yourself. Or go into Ifrit with a PLD, they take a while to build up threat compared to warrior. I have not partied with a single PLD that can hold threat consistently ever since the class came out, but warriors have been doing fine is what I have noticed. Not only that, warriors just deal more damage in addition to being the tank, making them more valuable to end boss fights faster. Madruk's right, there is no justification in using PLD over WAR right now.

Not nessicarly true. WAR uses physical damage as its main hate generator. PLD uses abilties mainly to generate hate, where damage delt has no effect to the enmity it generates. Think about it for a second. On tuff mobs that are going to be obviously resiliant to dps wich do you honestly think is gona hold hate better. Fact is when the damage delt by the war is greatly effected soo is their hate generation. This can be countered by gearing your WAR up much like a DD but then that neglects its tanking role and in turn the WAR takes a larger amount of damage. Even with Rampage, war takes anywhere from twice to 75% more damage then PLD. Sure their HP helps this issue but now that HP on WAR is gimped that edge has lost alot of luster. PLD obviously has moves in wich it needs TP as well, soo how do we generate enough TP to keep the hate flowing non stop? simple, if the fight is agains a boss that deals massive damage (500-1500) a hit at a relativly fast rate it realy dosent take much to fill the TP bar on PLD. Claims that PLD cant generate enough tp cuz of low dps is simply false, I NEVER have issues with spaming hate abilites durring a boss fight. Also important to remember when fighting bosses that hit heavy your WHMs will heal alot more often on a tank with far less def and or vit. Example : my war will take 700 damage on avg from a swipe in my best tank gear (also noting the damage delt gose way down due to gear set up for tanking) where as my pld only gets hit for 400 on avg. In that situation not only dose the WARs 500 more HP offer little to no real advantage or PLD but hate loss is a bigger risk due to the lack of DD stats on war.

[SionDurant]

Well,

I actually agree, that's why I haven't made any suggestions to increase TP generation on PLD. I do however think solid MP Regen, of all my suggestions is a must.

I would prefer the combat exchange continue to be a meaningful challenge so it would be nice if we could have mp regen as a sub mechanic of one or more of our actions or even combos. (I know Cover does some regen when you have AF chest on, and it's actually good regen but we will not always have AF)

I also believe that trading the physical def 12 trait for 15 % flat damage reduction against all incoming force would make Paladin a must have on tough boss fights.

Don't want to censor anyone but please stray away from debating damage output, we've discussed this on about 100 topics and come to the conclusion every time that higher damage was not SE's intent for the Paladin.

[SionDurant]

One thing to add, during a high stakes encounter focusing on Fast and Flat combos, as well as taking every opportunity for Phalanx and Spirits/Wardrum you should stay pretty capped off.

If you know you've got your enemy dead to rights only then I'd suggest switching priority to trying to hit hard.

If you're a wow fan following WotLK, you may see taunts as a save the healer thing, taunts on XIV don't quite function that way and actually do something mathematically during fights, so continual use of at least Flash on cooldowns doesnt seem to be a bad idea especially since it can blind some foes.

Still kinda wish flash was a dot like Dia

[Aceofspades]

I will agree that PLD could greatly benifit from a self regen ability, but I guess thats what bards are for , either way it would not be a bad Idea. maybe instead of a 15 second ability that offers little protection is most boss fights (due to it lack of ability to avoid MAGIC damage too), maybe going from 0 to 100% mp would be more apropriate. or an attack that has a mp drain effect.

[SionDurant]

I will agree that PLD could greatly benifit from a self regen ability, but I guess thats what bards are for , either way it would not be a bad Idea. maybe instead of a 15 second ability that offers little protection is most boss fights (due to it lack of ability to avoid MAGIC damage too), maybe going from 0 to 100% mp would be more apropriate. or an attack that has a mp drain effect.

Anyone else got any written requests for PLD? Once I have everything I'm going to move this endeavor to a new post on gen discussions, of course truncated.