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  1. #41
    Player
    Jojoya's Avatar
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    Feb 2018
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    9,091
    Character
    Jojoya Joya
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    https://imgur.com/26zozfz

    Now this data is not mine (all credit goes to reddit user krainz) but this gives an overview of how popular field content and its closest EW equivalent is for people who are included in the branco census

    In general here is the main points
    -completion rate of abyssos normal is 45% of active players
    -acquisition of the mandragora mount for IS is 16% of active players
    -percentage of 70+ that went to pagos is 35%
    -percentage of people eligible to enter BA is 19%
    -percentage of players that went to Zadnor is 47%
    -percentage of players that got to resistance rank 25 is 34.8%
    -MSQ completion rate is 70%

    So from this we can see that Bozja specifically but even eureka have great retention rates, 32% of people who unlocked eureka reached BA, over 50% of people who unlocked Bozja reached rank 25 and this is compared to an MSQ completion rate of 70%

    I’m still not sure how square saw these numbers and thought people didn’t like field content but I think it’s pretty definitive evidence that field content is popular
    I think it's pretty telling that Pagos completion was 35% but the players eligible to enter BA is only 19%. That's clearly a drop off in interest in the content. I'm in that 19% but I've never set foot back in Eureka since completing the relevant quest. There was no retention in my case.

    It's also weird that 47% of players stepped foot into Zadnor but only 35% made it to Rank 25, which was required to enter The Dalriada and see the end of the story. Again, it shows a drop in interest in the content though not as drastic as the one for Eureka. There's nothing listed that indicates how much of that 35% continued to do content in Zadnor after reaching Rank 35. Completion isn't the same as retention. I feel like the percentage of players that completed the Critical Role IV achievement (do 500 CEs in Bozja/Zadnor) would be a better gauge of actual retention.

    I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any more exploration/field operation zones, only that what you're listing doesn't support any claims for retention. More content is a good thing as long as a significant portion of players are doing the content so the development resources and time aren't going to waste.

    But the dev team is still hindered by resource limits. SB had both Deep Dungeon and Exploration. ShB only had Field Operations (curious drop in content). This expansion only had Deep Dungeon but they also added Variant/Criterion as a new content form. Was it because Deep Dungeon had that much more ongoing participation than Eureka and Bozja/Zadnor did, or is it just a matter of they only have resources for one or the other and they decided it was Deep Dungeon's turn this time?

    Plus there was no mention at the FanFest of either Deep Dungeon or exploration/field operations zones. Maybe they are adding one or both but saving that information for the EU FanFest. Maybe they are still undecided.

    My suggestion would be for players to vote for what they want to see in the future by continuing to participate in it. The things we choose to do in game (or ignore) speaks louder to the developers than our words in the forums, reddit or social media.
    (4)

  2. #42
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
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    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
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    6,692
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    There is retention built into reaching elemental level 60 or rank 25 because that’s a grind in itself

    Reaching elemental level 60 even in the current massively nerfed eureka still takes longer than basically all of the non savage content released in 6.0

    Sure people may drop after after elemental level 60 but that’s still dozens of hours of content right there
    (1)

  3. #43
    Player
    Heroman3003's Avatar
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    Oct 2022
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    398
    Character
    Lauren Zackson
    World
    Lich
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Jojoya View Post
    Plus there was no mention at the FanFest of either Deep Dungeon or exploration/field operations zones. Maybe they are adding one or both but saving that information for the EU FanFest. Maybe they are still undecided.
    There was A mention of Deep Dungeons, although in weird and vague way - they announced some sort of new approach/changes to Deep Dungeons, but didn't announce a new one specifically. Its possible there will be one, or it might just be them going back and reworking existing ones somehow?

    Also there was a Q&A panel at some point and Exploration zones of the past were mentioned in a "we're talking about what to do with that concept in the future" context, so thats a hope.
    (1)

  4. #44
    Player
    Jojoya's Avatar
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    Feb 2018
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    9,091
    Character
    Jojoya Joya
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    There is retention built into reaching elemental level 60 or rank 25 because that’s a grind in itself

    Reaching elemental level 60 even in the current massively nerfed eureka still takes longer than basically all of the non savage content released in 6.0

    Sure people may drop after after elemental level 60 but that’s still dozens of hours of content right there
    But as Shurrikhan points out, you can't tell the player's motive for completing the content. Was there some reward they wanted to get or did they actually enjoy the content itself? Retention isn't getting someone to play through the content a single time, no matter how grindy. Retention is to get that player to keep returning for more because they had fun.

    In my case with Eureka, I did it because I wanted to see the story and because we were doing it as a FC group. I want to say we spread it out over 3-4 months getting most of the XP for the elemental ranks through the Challenge Log, not through the FATEs. I wouldn't have done it without the FC group, being with friends made it more bearable.

    Even going into Bozja with a FC group, I only got as far as unlocking Delubrum Reginae. I just couldn't stand the content (I think the battlefield theme was a turn off for me). While I was still curious about the story, I turned to YouTube to see it instead of doing it myself.

    I don't know if I'll have a similar reaction to such content. Maybe next time they come up with a formula that's fun to me.

    SE does offer a way to determine content retention through achievements. If you see someone with an achievement that requires more effort than what it takes to get the reward(s) from content completion, you've got a player that's clearly engaged by the content and would love to get more of the same. I'm not certain which achievements Lucky Bancho can scrape from the API, I know in some cases he's using possession of mounts or minions that are rewarded by quest completion.

    As I said before, I'm not against more content like Eureka and Bozja/Zadnor being added. More types of content is better for the game when feasible because different players enjoy different things. But SE does have to weigh participation against development time/resources and other content they want to be producing. Considering how many players are reward focused (see the "I like Variant/Criterion dungeons but won't do them more than once because they don't have rewards I want" comments), planning content becomes difficult. What will give players the most engagement?

    Here's to hoping that both a new exploration zone and a new Deep Dungeon will be announced at EU FanFest for those who enjoy that content.
    (2)

  5. #45
    Player
    TaleraRistain's Avatar
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    Jun 2015
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    5,540
    Character
    Thalia Beckford
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jojoya View Post
    I think it's pretty telling that Pagos completion was 35% but the players eligible to enter BA is only 19%. That's clearly a drop off in interest in the content. I'm in that 19% but I've never set foot back in Eureka since completing the relevant quest. There was no retention in my case.

    It's also weird that 47% of players stepped foot into Zadnor but only 35% made it to Rank 25, which was required to enter The Dalriada and see the end of the story. Again, it shows a drop in interest in the content though not as drastic as the one for Eureka.
    I think what's interesting about those two pieces of data is that you don't need BA to finish the relic and you don't need rank 25 to finish the relic. They haven't had an exploratory zone yet that they didn't tie the relic to. I think if they want to see what real interest is, they should do an exploratory zone and a relic as separate content. They can have the exploratory zone provide updates to the relic along with other options. They can have it give really great rewards. Then they could see if people are doing the content for itself, or because it has people being fed into it by such a key piece of content like the relic. And see if the rewards they give it are enough to give it longevity.
    (2)

  6. #46
    Player
    DixieBellOCE's Avatar
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    Mar 2022
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
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    1,132
    Character
    Dixie Bell
    World
    Ravana
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by TaleraRistain View Post
    I think what's interesting about those two pieces of data is that you don't need BA to finish the relic and you don't need rank 25 to finish the relic. They haven't had an exploratory zone yet that they didn't tie the relic to. I think if they want to see what real interest is, they should do an exploratory zone and a relic as separate content. They can have the exploratory zone provide updates to the relic along with other options. They can have it give really great rewards. Then they could see if people are doing the content for itself, or because it has people being fed into it by such a key piece of content like the relic. And see if the rewards they give it are enough to give it longevity.
    I would take a guess that the main purpose of Eureka for a lot of people is just unlocking Elemental Armor, hence why there is such a big drop from pagos to hydatos. You only need to reach pyros and buy your logos from the marketboard to unlock elemental armor, and grind some fates for the crystals to actually buy it.
    (0)

  7. #47
    Player
    Renalt's Avatar
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    Apr 2022
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    3,886
    Character
    Renalt El'doran
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 90
    Me, a smooth brain, when conversations start to get REAL analytical.

    (1)

  8. #48
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jojoya View Post
    But as Shurrikhan points out, you can't tell the player's motive for completing the content.
    Tbf, that was just an attempt to translate a Ren-ism.

    The perceived value and accessibility of content relative to other content with similar value (and perhaps therein also similar accessibility) does give a decent hint at whether or not content is played for intrinsic or extrinsic rewards.

    That variant dungeons or high-floors Deep Dungeons, etc., see any completion at all would indicate that some (very small sliver of) people still play content largely for intrinsic motivators, rather than extrinsic ones.

    That said...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jojoya
    Retention isn't getting someone to play through the content a single time, no matter how grindy. Retention is to get that player to keep returning for more because they had fun.
    Exactly this. We have no way of charting retention with any kind of statistical precision without having access to activity data logs and in turn whether the content met some unknown threshold of (sustained) activity or longevity that would likely be irrelevant to the devs' decision-making anyways.



    However, given how many players we can find doing Bozja / Eureka even years later vs. those doing a new Variant/Criterion just a few weeks after its release... even were to ask every player whether they came to that content specifically just to level a particular job or pursue a Relic and exempt then while not exempting those pursuing what few rewards Variant/Criterion Dungeons carry... I don't think that'd be a point in VCs' favor.
    (6)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 07-31-2023 at 12:45 PM.

  9. #49
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
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    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by TaleraRistain View Post
    I think what's interesting about those two pieces of data is that you don't need BA to finish the relic and you don't need rank 25 to finish the relic. They haven't had an exploratory zone yet that they didn't tie the relic to. I think if they want to see what real interest is, they should do an exploratory zone and a relic as separate content.
    Or, free up the Relic to be pursuable through any/all content, much like they've done with Endwalker... but actually balance the reward-efficiencies of said freed-up options relative to either Tomestones (a la EW Relics) or some granular currency unique to Relics (a la Light, or literally a replacement of EXP for each job after hitting level-cap).
    (0)

  10. #50
    Player
    xbahax92's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,098
    Character
    Flan Vongola
    World
    Raiden
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    Why do people have to justify player participation in any content?!

    "I dont like Custom Deliveries, devs should stop creating this!"
    "I dont like Ultimates, devs should stop creating this!"
    "I dont like PVP, devs should stop creating this!"
    "I dont like Glamours, devs should stop creating this!"

    Why do Devs have to cater to your likings, anyway?
    If you dont like it, don't do it. I'm not a fan of every piece of content either. So why forcing your dislikes onto others?
    Stop acting like your opinion only matters.
    And instead of whining about how bad or boring content, give proper feedback.
    The only thing that you're allowed to complain is the lack of communication. It's hilarious that we have to rely on a damn Famitsu article to get more information.

    This isn't aimed at anyone particularly, but to all forum users btw.
    (3)

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